By Mona Lisa Mouallem, CNN
At the 15th annual Women in the World conference, held in New York City last Friday, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton voiced her concern about the future of women’s rights in the Middle East:
"In recent weeks, we have seen women on the front lines of progress in Egypt and Tunisia. Some of the earliest organizers ... that helped galvanize Egypt and Tunisia were smart, wired and committed young women. But unfortunately, in both countries, there is a very real danger that the rights and opportunities of women could be eroded in this transition period."
Indeed, in the aftermath of the revolutions, women have been sidelined from the formation of the new governments.
In Tunisia, only two women have been appointed to the transitional government. Ousted Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali had far more women in his cabinet. Conservative voices in Tunisia are also calling for the scaling back of Tunisia's Personal Status Code, a series of laws that have protected women's rights in the country for more than 50 years.
In Egypt, not a single woman has been appointed to the council in charge of revamping the old constitution. And when Egyptian women called for a million-woman march seeking equal rights for all Egyptians, only a few hundred showed up last week. These women were greeted by a large group of men hurling misogynistic insults.
The fact that Middle East revolutions are not heralding improvements in women’s rights may come as a surprise. After all, it was only a few weeks ago that women and men were protesting side by side in Tunis, pitching up tents in unison in Tahrir Square, and bringing food and water to those who couldn't leave the demonstrations.
So why – despite their important role in bringing about change – are Arab women getting sidelined now?
There are several possible answers.
First, most experts agree that the anti-government protests are, first and foremost, protests against the political and economic status quo. Arab women have been protesting against political regimes for decades, so their role in the recent protests – while seemingly revolutionary – isn't all that new and doesn't symbolize a victory for women's rights.
Second, even though the revolutions taking place are a step toward democracy, it is important to recognize the cultural reality in most of these countries.
"What people have to realize is that these are religiously conservative societies, so a democracy in a largely Islamic country would have religious tendencies," said Shadi Hamid, a fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy. "Given that, we have to be honest with ourselves - there isn't much of a priority for women's rights."
Leila Austin, a professorial lecturer at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, considers it growing pains.
"If you look at revolutions throughout history, despite the idealism felt among the protesters, there is unfortunately a period of repression right afterwards. All the known 'contracts' have to get renegotiated – and there is always a battle going on between progressive and regressive forces. Women's issues are included in this."
So how will the revolutions taking place in the region affect women's rights? Is there a chance that women will become more marginalized than before?
Isobel Coleman, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of the book "Paradise Beneath Her Feet: How Women Are Transforming the Middle East," believes that the effects of revolution will vary country by country for women. We asked Coleman to examine a few countries for us. Here’s what she had to say:
Bahrain
The protesters that have been gathering in Bahrain for weeks now are calling for the end of the Sunni Al-Khalifa dynasty, which has ruled the majority Shiite country for 230 years. But it is women that have comprised more than half of the protesting population, and their presence symbolizes a desire to participate more in politics.
Bahraini women earned the right to vote in 2006, they can run for election, and they enjoy more rights than their Saudi neighbors. Nevertheless, there remains inequality among the genders, especially where family law is concerned.
"While Bahrain's events are mainly about politics," Coleman said, "I'm hopeful that a better political outcome will benefit overall human and women's rights."
Egypt
Hosni Mubarak was ousted February 11 after 30 years of dictatorship, and women of all ages played a huge role in his exit. While Egyptian women enjoyed more rights than their neighbors under Mubarak's rule, it was still the norm for women’s rights to be undermined.
While we don't know yet what a new government or new constitution will look like, there is already concern that women's rights will be sidelined and/or rolled back. In the weeks since Mubarak left, women have been excluded from the decision-making table.
"There's a lot of concern about Egypt, as there is real potential for backsliding," Coleman said. "Women's groups are not united, and there is no common platform advocating for women's rights."
Coleman remains optimistic, however, especially because "Egyptians' desire for Sharia is balanced by a strong demand for modernization."
Libya
Since Gadhafi came to power in the 1969 coup, he has claimed staunch support for women's rights, especially in the realm of education and employment. However, cultural norms and Libyan law continues to favor males, leading to the belief that much of Gadhafi’s attempts for change were more for political show than anything else.
Coleman is rather pessimistic about women's issues in Libya: "There is a brutal civil war happening; there are going to be tribal conflicts. Gadhafi trampled so much on human rights as it was, and was inconsistent in his approach to women's rights that, essentially, there's nothing written in stone for them. No matter what happens with Gadhafi, women's issues will be secondary."
Oman
Women's rights have increased steadily over the past decade in this monarchy. There are currently more women than men enrolled in universities, and women's participation in the work force is on the rise.
Like Bahrain, women's participation in the protests have less to do with rights and more to do with economic reform and a desire for all citizens to have more of a say in the government. Coleman believes that women’s issues will benefit in Bahrain and Oman if the protests there result in a more open and free society.
Saudi Arabia
In Saudi Arabia, women's rights are highly restricted. Women are not allowed to drive or vote, and they are required to wear abayas and headscarves outside the home. Women are also not allowed to appear in court, and they find it very difficult to obtain a divorce.
Women's rights remain a contentious issue in Saudi Arabia between those who want change and those who favor the status quo. Opinion is divided even among women themselves, as many do not believe in secular reform. Coleman, however, believes that the current demonstrations – while political – will result in favor of an increase in women's rights.
"Already in these demonstrations, we've seen prominent Saudis on the side of moral reform, calling to lift the ban on driving and other laws,” she said. “I think women could actually benefit from the protests."
Tunisia
The protests that occurred in Tunisia in December and January succeeded in ousting its former president. Tunisians were calling for change in leadership in the face of increasing unemployment, inflation, corruption, and violation of civil liberties.
However, Tunisian women enjoyed nearly all the same rights as men under Ben Ali's leadership, and they made great strides in all fields including law, medicine and media.
Now, with Ben Ali gone, Tunisia has opened itself up to the possibility of regression on women’s rights. Nevertheless, Coleman is optimistic about the situation: "No matter who takes the reins, it seems there will be a pragmatic approach to Islam. We are already seeing evidence of this among the top leaders."
Yemen
As it stands, Yemen is one of the least progressive countries in the world when it comes to women's rights. Here are some facts:
- Yemen has the largest gap in literacy rates between men and women in the world; only 35% of women are literate
- There is no minimum age for marriage, which means that many females find themselves with a husband when they are as young as 12
- If a woman wants to marry, she must ask a male relative for permission
- Only one member of Parliament is female out of 301
"Women's rights have been nearly nonexistent, so it's safe to say that it can only go up from here," Coleman said.
A sign that things might be on the up: One of the leaders of Yemen's protest movement, Tawakkul Karman, is a woman. For a couple of years now, Karman has been an outspoken champion for human rights.
"Along with standing up against the regime, Karman has been pushing a human-rights agenda and garnering support from many Yemeni women,” Coleman said. “So even though the current protests are not a movement specifically for women's rights, this has the potential to lead to later political freedom."
© 2011 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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they in all likelihood not help the situation of women in these countries since the next gov't is most probably going to be a religious one and it's the conservative religion that makes these women third class citizens
In the case of Egypt, i have not seen one religious slogan through out the revolution...
In fact the Muslim brotherhood will not have a candidate in the next presidential elections.
A constitutional amendment to be voted on Sunday in Egypt calls for any new president's wife to by Egyptian. This is in regards to Mubarek's wife being of Welsh descent. Does this mean that women are not allowed to run for the presidency? Most likely!!!!!!!!!! No mention is made in any of the new amendments to require the president's husband to be Egyptian. Is this the kind of twisted democracy that the United States government will help to facilitate? The United States is really not much better in regards to institutionalized discrimination. Gay and Lesbians fighting on the front lines of two Middle Eastern wars are still not able to speak of their loved ones. Laws have been passed by progressive Democrats and only 8 Conservative Senators to end this lunacy, but these laws have not yet been implemented. Conservative control of an Egyptian democracy will be no democracy at all.
1) Seriously, where the heck did you hear about this? I haven't seen this anywhere
2) It's not even a law, take a pill....
3) Get off your high horse, we have yet to have a female president, and we've been a Democracy for YEARS. In the early days of U.S. Democracy, women had no political rights. Just remember that when you compare a nation that's still developing itself (Egypt) to a nation that's been developed for many years (U.S.)
As long as religion in any form is molding constitutions and democratic institutions in any society, some group or subgroup will inevitably lose out. It is a fact of religion that some are elevated above others and that all men are NOT created equal. These Muslim women can count themselves out as soon as today and get on with their mediocre lives.
It is unbelievable that anyone in the universe is still defending this vile and repressive religion. As a woman I am offended by most every aspect of it.
Tell me, have you read either the Bible or the Qur'an?
Oh wait, you don't need to tell me. It is evident from your attitude that you have read neither. Get educated before you hand down pronouncements declaring a religion (and, by extension, its followers) "vile."
You don't need to read them to see the feces that they have strewn behind them.
So...despite never having read what you're condemning, you continue to condemn it? That is so unbelievably illogical.
My face has been in the science books where the supernatural and metaphysical don't reside and I am in my study on Sundays where no earthly groups with all of the knowledge in the universe regarding the afterlife are condemning me to an imaginary hell for loving another women.
Well as someone who spends their time with science, it is odd that you do not seem to understand that the basis for a conclusion is research.
Both Sarah and Karen are the one's who the "no rights for women" should be aimmed at. It's women like you, who make men like me, think you should all shut up and go make me a sandwich. Some women are smart, Mary Curie, some women are brave, Rosa Parks, and then there are women like you two, who just need to shut the hell up talking about what you don't know. I support women rights, but I don't support the rights of ignorants. Freedom of Speech? I'd rather not have it if people like you couldn't express your obscene opinions. By the way, you inherit religion, and most people tend to keep it due to the influences by society. Most people believe what they grow up around, which is why people still practice this "vile" religion.
Yes, I've read the Bible, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon and I condemn them all.
Hello Sarah:
As much as we detest some religion and cultural practices that are not similar to ours, it is inappropriate to call them "vile". In the US, we have some practices that other cultures will not approve of. I think it is all about educating people about each other and tolerating each other.
It's a duel between the Shia and the Sunnis. Under either theocratic rule or dogma, the woman has as much rights as a chair.
...and it is no rocking chair.
I spent 8 years living in the Middle East as a U.S. civilian contractor. One thing that many people don't understand is that Islam is an integral part of these societies. The Holy Koran literally defines all aspects of a Muslim's life and clearly delineates the relationship between men and women.
I regret that the concept of women's rights is in conflict with strongly entrenched religious beliefs. For example, in Saudi Arabia, it takes 3 female eyewitnesses to equal the testimony of one man. This practice originates in the teachings of the Koran.
It would be great if you could give the verse from the Koran that supports your claim...
Did you actually read it your self from the Koran?
Some Muslim countries like (Pakistan and Indonesia) have already had women as heads of state and that is yet to happen in the USA:
I believe it is actually 2 witnesses not 3.
YUSUFALI: If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.
PICKTHAL: And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.
SHAKIR: ...(if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.282
Interesting to note the Quranic justification for not letting women lead:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/7292/Egypt/Politics-/Egyptian-million-woman-march-ends-with-a-gunshot.aspx
This lunacy alone should speak volumes as to the inequality and institutionalized discrimination of women. We should not support governments that don't insist upon freedom of association and speech and freedom from religion.
The U.S. will support an anti-human rights dictatorship if that's what's in its interest. Heard about Egypt? When the U.S. gives it's support, it's not concerned about the rights of the people in the nation it's supporting; the U.S. worries solely about its own strategic interests.
@S I am fully aware of who we support. I'm saying we shouldn't. Your religious comparisons only support the atheist belief that they are all evil to some degree and that they thwart the lives of many. Religions have been the true institutions that have applied the brakes to modernity, equality and human rights. Religions sat idly by during slavery and have actively worked to thwart the lives of gay people. A good test of religions should be how they treat their gay communities and I must say that they fail miserably.
Hello Rita:
I completely agree with you. The society actually use the umbrella of religion to commit so many heinous crimes. I am sure that if Jesus Christ or Mohammed is alive now, they will support some of the social isssues that we tend to use religion as an excuse to ignore or to suppress. For instance, in US, we clainm to have freedom of speech, religion, etc. However, we continue to oppress the Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual and Transgender populations. One of the reasons people claim against same sex marriage is that the bible is against it. However, the same nay-sayers will allow or tolerate men that cheat on their wives. Anyway, it is time that this generation make a positive social change about these issues.
Dave, you are correct. In Islamic society a woman's status is well below that of a man.
Well, now that we have Jesus's word on the matter.....haha
Aren't they compelled to walk six feet behind their husbands? I know for a fact that women in Saudi Arabia are no longer able to walk their dogs anymore for fear of mingling with men. That is extreme. Poor puppy has to wait till the men get off the prayer mat and get back to work where they should have been all along. Does God really want us bowing five times a day or staying in the lab finding the cure for cancer?
Zach, anyone would agree that that is extreme....it also has nothing to do with Islamic law but with power-crazed men deciding to go many steps further than what they are actually allowed to do underneath the religion. I fully agree that there is something wrong with that. But criticize the governments, or the nations, or the vestiges of old cultures, because I can tell you right now that Islam actually has nothing to do with that.
No initial revoluton is *ever* about *people's* rights; it is ALWAYS about *men's* rights. Women must fight a second revolution later, because oppressed men never want to extend the same rights to women as they demand for themselves. That's how Women's Lib got started in the US, when black and white chickie-boos in the civil rights and New Left movements realized that, as Stokely Carmichael so bluntly put it, "the only position for women here is prone."
Women's rights are key to the stabilization of the violent culture of the Islamic world.
This article addresses an important issue.
We should be very careful before supporting the protesters. They could very well bring in a Taliban-like, terrorist oriented government.
Which we all know is extremely likely as they just ousted dictatorships and the protesters, judging by the signs and the screaming, want Democracy....
@kls817 The violent culture of the Islamic world!!!
Sorry, but the bloodiest wars in the history of man kind were started and fought by westerners (WWI, WWII) also add the bloodiest civil wars (USA)....
Just compare the murder rate now for the USA with the all of the middle east combined, you will be shocked.
Also take a look at all the other violent crime like school shootings, rape and armed robberies.
Yet, none of these events were done in the name of God, unlike so many Hindus in India. Mo ran up a tally of over 80 million...wait for it...in the name of God.
Violence is violence regardless of its cause...
Nobody ever seems to mention that both sides are killing each other and it's not one-sided violence.
Wars to eradicate Slavery, an ultra-nationalist Monarchy and Facism. No too bad.
Islam? Millions killed...to expand Islam.
Must be time for your AAA meeting...
How about wars to perpetuate U.S. interests, like, you know, all the Native Americans who were killed to expand this nation. Or the civil wars the U.S. drummed up or anti-human rights dictatorships the U.S. installed in other nations....those both killed plenty of people.
Of the millions who died in our wars, not one was promised 76 virgins. And few ate, breathed and sh-t religion 24/7.
One thing at a time: We still don't even know how this will all play out. Our kids will.
Thank you for being reasonable and using actual facts that we have RIGHT NOW instead of projecting the most negative possibilities as the future. Not like the author of this article...
The author of this story laid down the blinding facts with the most delicate of hands. There is no easy way to say that the men of the Middle East don't know how to treat their women or that the women are so brainwashed by religion that they roll over and accept the psychological subjugation.
Not believing what you believe does not mean brainwashed. This is the Western 'we are superior by default' attitude that any other beliefs must be wrong, and for anyone to believe in them, well, their must be something wrong with them. If the person with opposing views is a woman, they're brainwashed (because women are apparently inferior and cannot think for themselves); if it's a man, they're simply evil.
Stupid, stupid belief....
@S Are you suggesting that these subjugated women get to freely express their opposing views? I think not!!! Only during a revolution. Not before and not after.
@Andrea...how do you know? You can now predict the future? You can see the futures of nations before you?
I don't have any big demands, but I just want to know....what's the weather going to be like next week?
All I'm saying, Andrea, is that we have no idea how these revolutions will play out for all involved. It's quite possible that, because of the revolution, women will begun to be seen in a new light, as increasingly valid, capable political contributors to society. It will take time, but I believe that these revolutions will help women more than harm them. Check out the pictures of the women in the streets, talking to male soldiers (*gasp!* haha) or with their faces painted with the colors of their countries. I am optimistic. You can choose not to be, but don't act as though the future is set in stone.
I'm sure that we can all appreciate your optimism and hope for the future, but I'm afraid that it will be a future that you will not get to see. What is needed for these women is a vocal and sustained voice and that is not allowed. This is barely allowed for the men. Their modesty in dress seems to dictate their modesty in backbone, stature, self determination, self confidence and dignity. Do you actually think that a public bra burning protest would be allowed anywhere in the Middle East? These patriarchal societies even inflate the young men to look down upon women. I wish them the best, but optimism is an empty bucket without a direct line to the bully pulpit.
You know, predominantly Muslim nations have had female leaders before, like Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan; the U.S. has never had that. Don't count them out so fast. I'm just saying, look at the pictures: women are involved, really involved, and I have not heard any objection to that coming from the men. I mean, look at the girl in picture 7, for example; she looks confident and happy, and she is (shockingly enough!) wearing makeup. I think that real progress will be made.
I've read the Bible, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon and I condemn them all.
The mideastern nations will never be "civilized" until women are given the same rights as men receive. I have no respect for ANY Islamic nation and believe they are less than animals for their treatment of women.
It does not sound that you are civilized your self!
There is literally no such thing as an "Islamic" nation in existence. None of them fully adhere to the laws for a country laid down in any legitimate Islamic sources.
So when you say "Islamic nation," I assume you mean, "I really don't know what I'm talking about."
Why are you generalizing allo Islamic countries? It is like saying that we will never respect the US until there is "REALLY" equal rights for women, minorities and gays. Again, we need more information before we start prosecuing other cultures.
Rather than impose our Western and elitist beliefs regarding the rights of women, let's give the women of those countries the right to make their own choices. The purpose of feminism is to give women choices, even if Western women might disagree with those choices.
Fine sounding words, until you start bringing it all closer to home. How close geographically and culturally can you hold this stance without flinching? Does this apply to the beliefs of "redneck" Americans, for instance?
I find it appalling that the media and many liberal show support for these mid-east nations who have massive human rights violations against women. Most of the revolutionaries want MORE oppression of women, not less.
And this information comes from......?
I agree. For example, the vast majority of women who wear a headscarf choose to do so. Just because it's not what many American women would choose to do, that doesn't make it an illegitimate choice. I'm tired of everyone thinking the women in these countries are too stupid to stand up to men if that's what they want, and that they need us to ride in on a white horse and 'save' them. By the way, our history of 'saving' ME nations has only made them hate us more....Let's stay out of it and let them figure out their own futures.
Please!!! If you moved all of the women out of Saudi Arabia and into Ardmore, Oklahoma where there are no religious police, I'm certain those annoying scarves would come flying off within minutes.
1. Chances are many would not want to be ripped from their homes to be placed in a foreign country whose language they likely do not speak.
2. You won't change their belief that there is nothing wrong with modesty. Just as you would refuse to wear a scarf if you traveled to such a nation, because you don't believe in it, they would continue to wear a scarf if they were to come here, because that's what they believe is right.
It was just a hypothetical thought. Yes I would wear the scarf If I was in the some countries in the Middle East. I would not want to get arrested.
In most countries, you would not be arrested....like Egypt, U.A.E, Bahrain, etc etc.
That's not an answer. Run away AAA!
Sorry big Boob, but you are not making any sense
So if your neighbor is looking to harm you, I should mind my own business and not help you out?
That's breaking down the wars you mentioned into it's lowest terms, but that is what was done. They were wars that did kill many people, but many more were liberated. For the sake of liberty itself, not for a religious dogma. But I would imagine that I don't make any sense to you if you embrace the all-encompassing life of Islam where the enlightend and the infidels are so well defined.
As a woman I have no respect for ANY nation where women are worth less than men. As for Islam it gave women more rights than they currently have in some of these nations. Like the right to a prenup! It isn't equality but most religions in the world are not about equality. It takes civil and societal change for women to move toward equality but than can only happen in places were people are fed and clothed and can speak their minds. I am hoping this is where the middle east is headed.
Thank you. Finally someone else helps me to point out that many of these nations' attitudes towards women are operating out of antiquated cultural traditions that actually have nothing to do with Islam, and are not written in anything Islamic. The burqa, for instance? Never mentioned in Qur'an/sayings of the Prophet/anything else.
You seem to be arguing that all of these crazy conservative laws have nothing to do with Islam. Would you not relent for just a moment that Islam is the springboard for these cultural laws and facilitates these crazy laws against women? I mean, they didn't get them from Scientology.
I'm arguing that laws that dictate a woman walk behind her husband, or that she wear a burqa, actually have nothing to do with Islam. Nowhere in any Islamic source are these things asked of a woman.
If you look, realistically, Islam gives women many rights that other religions do not. Therefore, there must be some other culture. We know that the cultures preceding Islam had horrible anti-woman components, such as female infanticide or genital mutilation, etc. etc. These cultures are the source of the attitude towards women that taints the way Islam is used/viewed.
I agree that they most certainly did not get these ideas from Scientology; they got them from old culture. If you want a more accessible example, take the way we celebrate Christmas, or the date for it. Those things are pretty much taken from ancient Pagan culture. It is certainly very possible for antiquated cultures/ideas to have an effect on the way a religion is followed today, even if the religion itself does not perpetuate those antiquated ideas.
Lyle:
Do you think that the bible facilitates hatred for people who are not "main stream" American surburbia??? I agree with S, we should brainstorm how to support these women. Blaming Islam for the plight of women in middle East is like blaming the bible for molestation of boys by the catholic priests....
Is my sandwich made yet?
@Robert
Financial transactions are the ONLY situations where two women may substitute for one man as witness. This is to guard against the real possibility that one witness may marry the other witness, and thus cause her to be biased. It is a recognized fact that women are more emotionally vulnerable than men. If the woman as a witness was worth half that of a man, the verse would have stated so clearly. But obviously that is not the case. Women's testimony in all other matters are equal to that of a man or even supersedes his testimony as in the case of a wife testifying against her accusation of adultery, 24:6-10. See also, 65:2, 5:106 and 4:6
re: If the woman as a witness was worth half that of a man, the verse would have stated so clearly. But obviously that is not the case.
"and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women",
"And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women",
"and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women"
Sounds pretty clear that the testimony of two women are equal to that of one man to me. Granted, the 2.282 verse may be about financial transactions but Dave1346's comment did not exclude financial transactions nor did your request for the verse.
re: Women's testimony in all other matters are equal to that of a man or even supersedes his testimony as in the case of a wife testifying against her accusation of adultery, 24:6-10. See also, 65:2, 5:106 and 4:6
Not sure how much 24:6 matters if a man only has to swear four times that he is telling the truth:
YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
PICKTHAL: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.
65:2 seems to refer only to divorce and I am not sure how 5:106 or 4:6 has any relevance to the value of a woman's testimony relative to that of a man.
I assure you that the backward treatment of women in most of these third world countries comes from old stupid traditions and not a certain religion.
For example circumcision for girls is not in the Koran and it is not in the bible, but in some third world countries people of all religions practice it (it is portrayed that only Muslims do that but it is not true) it is ignorance.
@AAA, well as long as you assure me then I won't worry about how Muslim women are treated in Islamic countries. Gee if we only had this discussion years ago I would have save myself so much sadness over the plight of Muslim women.
I find it appalling that the media and many liberal show support for these mid-east nations who have massive human rights violations against women. Most of the revolutionaries want MORE oppression of women, not less.
Every woman, doesn't matter which country / religion / race she belongs to, should be respected and should be given equal rights as men. We all are human beings first and all of us (irrelevant of gender) have an equal opportunity to live freely on the mother earth. This simple thought has been vanished in our journey so far, since the start of the human civilization. I hope whatever is happening in these countries, is happening for their own good but, it should not be at the cost of innocent lives. Peace.
Help women? Are you crazy? Name 1 country that is governed by Islamic law, name 1, where women have the rights they do in the USA. Name 1 country that is governed by mooslims that is peaceful, prosperous, and encourages self empowerment? Name 1 country that is governed by moooslims where you literally can be born from nothing and with a little luck and plenty of hard work, you can be sucessful? Oh wait...to these animals sucess is measured by how many virgins are waiting for you and how many times you pray each day. Bunch of fools.
Malaysia is your country...
I agree with u that the Muslim countries are not advanced and behind.
It is difficult for oppressed people to be advanced, democracy is the key here.
Name one country that is advanced and not a democracy!
Starting with the Romans 2000 years ago up until now, the western countries have been stealing, killing and raping in the middle east.
Some countries did not get their Independence until the 60s.
The west left most countries and now we see that all these dictators are paying these thugs to keep them in powers.
What do u expect?
Don't make comments on thing you know very little about.
Of the 5 largest majority muslim countries, 4 of them have had a female head of state.
Where I live women make up 23.5% of the national assembly compared to 17% women in US congress.
@Big Bob
compare the murder rate, rape, school shootings (dude we have metal detectors in our schools in the USA), armed robberies, the amount of drug crime and the thousands of abortions every year to the rate of these crimes in Egypt for example.
You will see who is civilized, you will be shocked.
When was the last time a school bus exploded in the USA, or a woman was doused with acid, or someone was beheaded? I guarantee the middle east has seen more of those things in one year than all of the Christian 1st world countries combined over the last 100 years.
Check out the "justice" page and see how many articles you get on gang rape, domestic violence, drug crimes, children murdering and being murdered. No where is perfect.
So the crimes committed in Western countries such as racism, white collar crimes, home invasions, rape, child sex abuse, scams, murders are more acceptable???
HA! It's so funny how CNN is completely blind to the real facts. Until someone actually owns up to Islams terrible, horrific treatment of women – nothing will be achieved. You notice how every answer for each country is a glossing over of the women being less than animals in status, and then they end by saying "oh yes this country definitely will have a rise in women's rights – it has to".
What a joke. CNN really really aggravates me with this nonsense.
Actually, Islam was the first religion to prohibit female infanticide, give women property rights, allow women to have their own money, and allow them to vote. Theoretically, in Islam, women have many, many rights. Attack the nation if you want, but don't blame the religion until you know something about it.
Did you know that Christianity says that you have to kill the rapist and the rape victim for not crying out loudly enough/stopping it?
Did you know that in the bible, women are often treated as the property of men?
Did you know that Christianity demands the killing of non-believers?
Did you know that Christianity promotes the killing of children, if they are the "sons of sinners?"
I don't want this to be a whose-religion-is worse battle. But these generalizations that Islam is evil and everything else is good and pure are simply untrue. Every other religion has its negative aspects, too. Only these religions are prominent in nations that have been allowed to develop.
Hey, S! Did you know that most Christian dominated societies are 1st world, have running water and have schools. People also live in houses not structures built with mud or a tent.
When was the last time a group of Christians hijacked a plane? Since the inception of air travel, out of all the hijacked aircraft, how may were under Muslim siege? What percentage all of the terrorist acts over the last 75 years are attributable to Muslims? I'll tell you how much...a S-load. No pun intended.
Christian dominated societies are first world because they spent the better part of the 19th and 20th centuries keeping other societies down and controlling them.
It would actually be impossible to figure out how many terrorist attacks are attributable to Muslims, since no one calls acts done by non-Muslims terror attacks. If the attack on Ms. Giffords, for example, had been perpetrated by a Muslim, it would've been called terrorism. To me, it looked a lot like terrorism but no one called it that. Or the Israeli incursion that killed thousands of citezens and involved white phosphorous strongly resembled terrorism, but no one called it that. Again, if a Muslim had done it, it would've been called terrorism. Or what about when that vigilante in Arizona shot a child and a man basically for not being white? Looks like terrorism to me.
Muslims are the only terrorists because acts of violence done by Muslims are the only ones called terrorist attacks, despite the strong resemblance to 'terrorist attacks' carried out by people of all different cultures all over the world.
Also, I could be wrong, but I haven't heard about anyone in U.A.E. (you know, where that big, rich city Dubai is) or in Saudi Arabia or Egypt, etc etc living in tents or mud huts. Not sure where this warped, elitist imagery is coming from.
You make very valid points, however, all of those terrible things that have happened in the USA ( I agree should be considered terrorist acts) are still a drop in the bucket compared to what takes place in the middle east nearly daily for the last 10,000 years. Unfortunately, the common denominator is Islam. No other place on earth has the history the middle east does.
By the way, I am not Christian.
If we're going back as far as the last 10,000 years, other religions have quite a lot to account for, too. But I won't get into that; I'm sure you can think of some examples (e.g. the Spanish Inquisition).
But in recent history, I think the main problem is that these nations are underdeveloped. You know how deep racism and hatred can run in the ever-so-slightly less developed pockets of this nation, or where education is not as strong or diverse; imagine an entire nation that is a couple hundred years behind in development. Of course there will be problems. It's not entirely fair to compare them to the nations that have been developing, and have been able to push forward into a more perfect form of govt.
Recall in the U.S. how long it took after Democracy to get equal rights for women and blacks. We still haven't achieved equal rights for all yet. Now think of these nations, which are years behind. Give it time, and allow the countries to develop the way we did.
PoodleSweat:
Christian societies do not hijack planes. They are too busy stealing from third world country. I hate to be part of this argument but blaming religion for plight of women is just an argument none of will win. We need to find a way to empower women so that they can stand up for their rights. I beleive that this empowerment will come from education and changing our curriculum to include these societal issues.
How are the good black people treated in America? remember they only go the right to vote from 1965, that is 189 years after Americas independence...
How are the gays treated in America compared to the Scandinavian countries?
Most of these countries got their independence in the 1950s and 1960s.
Islam's attitude towards women as cast in stone ever since the fifty-two-year-old Mohammed copulated his child-bride Aisha when she was only nine-years-old. In court, a woman's testimony is counted as half of a man's. You can never, ever reconcile Islam with universal suffrage or Western democracy. If women are not equal in Islamic countries, how can there ever be democracy?
There is a reason that the United States has a Child Protective Services and that is because parents neglect, kill and beat the living crap out of their children on a daily basis.
Yes, it's much better to grow up and be beaten and raped by your husband and stoned to death for showing your face. I think I will take the society that at least has enough decency to put in a social safety net.
Any government influenced by religion, and most especially when heavily influenced, cannot be a democracy – it will be a theocracy. Period. Religion has no business being involved in democratic government in the modern world, for many of the reasons stated here.
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." – Arthur C. Clarke
@ "S"
You clearly have no idea of the definition of terrorism. Nothing Mr. Laughner (ms.giffords would-be assassin) has done was terrorism, he was simply a murderer. Nothing Israel has done was terrorism either, they target people who are practicing terrorism and in the process collateral damage happens because those terrorists hide behind homes and schools.
Look up terrorism, please, before you misinform anyone else.
Terrorism:
–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
No, I still think I'm right. Regardless of the definition, if a Muslim had done it, we both know it would've been called terrorism. Israel killed many more civilians than "people who [were] practicing terrorism." So that's not collateral damage, that is killing citizens as a means of political coercion.
the girl is picture 7 is pretty dang cute.
the girl in picture 7 is pretty cute.
In all honesty I have to agree that many of the women will not be gaining more rights, that would be too much of a change for those countries. It is similar to African American rights here; we "freed" the slaves supposedly giving them all the rights of a white man instead they faced segregation and where 3rd class to the white women of our nation. Eventually everyone got the same rights but that took years and in our case we where not dealing with religion which makes almost anyone a fanatic. I hate that these women will not be getting equal rights but the truth is that there is a population of Muslim women who do not believe they should get more rights and until that is changed none of the women will get equal rights.
But you've just said it: it takes years for minorities to get their rights (I'm aware that women are not technically a minority, but I'm not sure how else to put it). It's sad but true. And people were fanatical here, not because of their religion, but because they believed in their inherent superiority, which is just as bad, if not worse. Rights don't happen over night. A country needs to develop.
Well actually women are still considered a minority even here we are restricted in the job market. But it is their religion, it is something they have been raised to believe and even if it is not always practiced in relation to religion that is where it stems from. I think that given a few more generations and a continued exposer to how the rest of the world (ie the U.S and its allies) look upon womens rights things could make a major change for the better. Right now many of the people who would support the movement are to isolated or uninformed to do anything at all. And historically women do follow mens lead it is about the survival instinct as well. People still need to overcome that urge but in places like the Middle East survival is still questionable.
@PoodleSweat
Obviously you did not know that Ethiopia is a Christian country, or south America (Most countries are poor) same as several countries in Africa ...
sorry to tell you that the gulf countries are some of the richest in the world.
You are talking about 10 000 years
Islam is only 1400 years old.
When Islam was born the Romans were there killing raping and steeling, the Romans became Christians, the killing, raping and steeling continued...it goes on to this day the westerners always find an excuse to have a presence there to continue their dirty deeds.
Let's not forget slavery of African. Christianity facilitated that in the guise of bringing salvation to Africans.
women hold up half the sky.
The gulf countries are some of the richest in the world because they have oil under their lands, not because of any of the so-called fruits of Islam.
@ Robert
Gulf countries and arab world are strong by their ISLAM before having had oil, I suggest you to read the history, it would help you to know who are muslims and what they did in a time they didn't even had something to eat.
Truth be told, the arabs are a bunch of backward people still living way behind these modern times, mostly due to their practice of islam and the antiquated teachings of the satanic koran.
@the truth
if being muslims means backward people in ur opinion, so YES we are backward arabs, and who u r to judge Islam. We really don't care whether u like our way of life or not. So calm down
Suzan, if you really don't care if non-Muslims like your way of life then stop demanding we tolerate your beliefs, especially if you are not willing to tolerate our beliefs.
The topic of (women’s rights) is certainly exhausted and I won’t talk about it cuz. as a Muslim woman that talking from experience I realized that people of other religions won’t understand what woman means in Islam as they always take extreme examples of people ,who called Muslims while they aren’t , and apply to Islam as a religion. In regard to Islam, I would like to go through a few points:
1- About accusing Islam of inequality, who did subjugated (black people ) for more than 400 years and treated them as animals and belongings. Muslims or Christians? I won’t refer to Christianity cuz. your ancestors as we all know changed the Bible, they compiled and rewrote it and as a result you have got tens of Bibles which contain a huge part that written by men and not God’s words. I am sure original Christianity doesn’t say treat people unequally if they have different colours , races or religions. So I am sorry, but you are Christians without Christianity. On the other hand, Islam erase social classes, gender and race inequality and clearly state that no differences between Arabs or foreigners whether men or women except by TAQWA-which is fear from God-. In the early period of Islam, rich people shared their money and properties with poor people and depicted a real picture of brotherhood, and until now no racial, social or economic classes in all Islamic countries, especially in Saudi Arabia which is the pyramid of Islam.
2- While western societies held so many conferences to discuss women’s “basic human” rights, women in Islam live as equal as men. It’s only a matter of specifying roles and what everyone is capable of doing.
3-Here, you are judging Islam and Muslims without knowledge and you are just repeating the same things over and over, your ways is taking some extreme examples and use them all the time to judge Islam as a religion. And unfortunately, when Muslims who know their religion very well and more than others prove the opposite of your opinions, you just put your fingers in your ears as you don’t want to admit the truth.
4- You always say that Islam spread by sword, and I would like to say take only a few minutes and surf some recent researches and see which religion is growing very fast.Are Muslims with their swords fighting in the USA or any other country to spread Islam???
5-It is important for everyone wants to come here and talk about Islam and acts as if he/she knows Islam very well to know that there is a big major difference between Islamic world and western’s. In Middle East, religion which is Islam, is an integral part of lives and societies and gov’ts build their laws and constitutions on this basis, as a result, obviously they will have unique lives that are different from yours. And of course being different and not having your ways of lives don’t mean you societies are better and Muslims are not satisfied with their lives. They don’t need to invent laws and try different ways of lives, Islam talks about every aspect of life and they follow their religion. Here is an interesting example which is Saudi Arabia. It is almost the only country that follows that it constitution is Islamic 100%, and it is the only country that people(men and women) stand beside the gov’t against the protests and call loudly that they don’t want a change in the constitution or the royal family. Saudi peoples like their law cuz. it is built on Islam, so even if the gov’t wants to change the law and constitution, people won’t allow that to happen. It’s really unfair to call it a revolution as it was only 10 people out of 27 million, and their demands were merely some reforms. In the east province of Saudi Arabia, which is Shiits’ region, there were demands to release some prisoners who are in prisons for so long time and accused of being extreme and bombing some buildings in a big Saudi city in 2001. Saudi Shiits stated clearly that there were no demands to change the Islamic law or system of ruling the country. In Tunisia, people protested cuz. their King didn’t rule by Islam and he didn’t allow them to practice their religion freely. Women can’t wear Hijab or cover their heads. In Egypt, the president was dictator and don’t listen to peoples’ demands. The point which I want to convey to you is that Muslims want real Islamic constitutions not only Islamic by name, and these revolutions are clearly exemplify that whenever gov’ts don’t rule by Islam, people will demonstrate and rebel. I don’t blame you guys cuz. ur sources are only the media which are 99% distort facts and in so many time intentionally convey only one side of the truth.
Finally, I would like to thank both (AAA) and (S) for trying to show the truth. SALAM
@suzan, You, AAA and S accuse anyone who is not a Muslim of not understanding Islam and yet you all seem to think you understand Christianity. You assume that anyone who does not see the fruits of Islam as you all do has not studied history or taken the time to learn about Islam, yet you all seem to think you know everything about Western history and societies. You are all fine examples of the Islamic supremist attitude that is causing so much friction between dar al Islam and dar al Harb.
Right, Muslims never had anything to do with enslaving people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery
http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/ReachOut/slavetrade.html
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/mssmi/ch2.htm
filthy islamists you and your honor killings. You wild beasts are nothing but thugs. go camel fokking, that's what u do best.
haha.... u r funny!
bte GET A LIFE u hating bitch
as I said b4, u here just taking the extreme examples and judge Islam throgh them, plz. get educated. Do yourself a favour and learn how to build ur opinion on real facts and not being bias. And the whole world know who fuck animals, do a quick search on the internet and see whether muslims get fucked by their animals or you. I didn't want to talk about such disgusting topics, but u forced me and at the same time I know that u don't feel shame of fucking animals as you are "modern and civilized " societies, hhhhh. THANK ALLAH that I am muslim.
Wow, you blow your father with that mouth?
@Zorro
The type of language you use only exposes your lack of mental capacity and education.
It is difficult for to carry on a discussion in a civilized manner.
Suzan says non-Muslims get fucked by animals and you question my civility?
actually believe it or not.... its true... there have been reported casses of animal-human cases in the US...so i have heard a few times in the new in the last few years
I think human equal rights should be for all people, even for men. Alimony is slavery and clearly violates the 13th amendment of the United States Constitution and the Women in the World Conference will not bring up this subject. The idea of selective oppression irks me. My oppression is better than your oppression because ours in the USA is unacceptable. We are all human beings and should all be treated equally. Also the Women in the World Conference should help fathers in the United States of America get equal custodial parental rights to their biological children. There is no excuse or constitutional justification to deny that right to all parents, even if they happen to be male.
I am currently living in Bahrain. Women have (had) a greater place in society here than in most other middle-East countries. Saudi women come (came) to Bahrain to drive on the weekends because they are not allowed to drive there.
In Egypt, a group of women were nearly assaulted very recently for attempting to speak out for women's rights. It is an unfortunate reality, even in Iran (in case you don't follow events) that women are subjected to an entirely different set of rules in society than men.
It is more than just a part of the culture and has roots far deeper than anything in American history and thus one cannot make a comparison. To believe that religion plays no part in the situation is absolutely naive. I am not judging any religion. They have their place, they all have their faults, they have provided guidance and comfort to untold numbers however, they are ALL defined by the people who practice them and therein lies their greatest weakness. And yes, for all the pontificating and self-righteousness, that includes "christianity". Just look at some of the comments here and tell me how some here can make claim to any "god" or religion. (My own thought and that makes it rather singular.)
As to the question of whether the current events in the region will help the plight of women in these societies, I would have to say I don't believe it will. I don't know whether that will change in the future but if it does I seriously doubt that it will in the lifetime of many reading and posting here, including myself.
It is really sad to see that of all western countries, the American people are so misinformed. If you travel around western Europe you would know what I mean...
Although they have at their disposal all these media outlets.
I mentioned this in an earlier post; yes the women are treated badly in Saudi Arabia and Iran for example, but these are extreme examples.
Did you ever ask your self how can women become heads of state in Muslim countries (Pakistan and Indonesia) and it is yet to happen in the USA?
The women are not treated as you were made to believe...
Try to think on your own!!!
I'm wondering whether driving cars becomes the core of woman's human rights? lol
Is it the only accusation that u r tryin' to prove to accuse Islam? Then I'll tell u KSA has their own reasons to not allow women to drive and just for the record that has nothing to do with Islam, because Islam doesn't prohibit women's driving. If 10% of women want to drive, the other 90% don't, and I'm one of the 90%. And it's your own problem to condider it whatever u want.
Saudi Arabia isn't an extreme example, and from my own point of view if the gov'ernment and the people are both agreed and satisfied with what they're doing, then no matter what others think about them. The constitution is Islamic and the majority is happy with that and life is going on. LOL They enjoy their own lives over there while yopu are still killing yourselves here to interpret the situation and discuss things that are no longer important for them. lmao
knock it off and take care of your own business...
Yes, it will help women. It will help them back into the kitchen and maternity wards where they belong in those backward cultures.
@ Ali Baba
and don't talk about something that u have no idea about .....I hate reading such stupid and unrealistic opinion.
I am 100% sure that u talk about 10.000 years ago, don't u ?
I can't believe that there r some people who still have this view. For God's sake update ur information
Advice: Change ur name (Ali) u don't deserve it wallah.
3amar ya ARAB
A vexing outcome of Islamic governments, who are mostly anti West, has been the disintegration of women's rights in particular, and all human rights in general. It must be horrible for a professional woman to be marginalized due to a change in government. The proliferation of conservative Islamic Governments in the Middle East is a movement of the peasantry being lead by very crafty politicians who really are guided by power and money just like all politicians. All the fears, superstitions, and anguish of the lower classes is mobilized against the Western political, and social philosophies adopted in these countries over the last seventy years. Hitler mobilized the sam kind of rage in Germany, and the public repudiated the freedoms of the Weimar Government, just as folds in the Middle East are repudiating just about everything Western today. Middle Eastern folks will one day lament that they were mislead by the likes of Bin Laden, just a Germans were mislead by Hitler. Any democratic aspects and components of this regional revolution will be hijacked by the political realists who understand that it is always about political power and money. Personal freedom, especially for woman, is not what this is about. They are exchanging inefficient dictatorships for new inefficient dictatorships that promise bread, and history has taught us where this road leads.
@ admiral149
I start feeling tired of telling people that Bin Laden doesn't represent Middle Eastern people and he is mere an extreme example. If someone from the Middle East met you, he/she wouldn't hate or kill you because you have different beliefs or religion. C'mon. It really doesn't need to be explained.
Women in Middle East live their lives as their counterparts in other countries, with keeping the Islamic and arabic identity. That's why they wear Hijab for instance. It isn't a man's order, it's a religious order and believe me even if men say to women put off your Hijab, none would listen. You should know that Middle Eastern people have different ideological nature and cultural background. Therefore, what someone in Western societies see it as against women's right, Middle Eastern people might see it as a woman's right. (Women's rights) issue is exhausted and all who talk about it don't consider the religious and cultural background of Middle Eastern societies and that religion is an integral part of their personalities, lives and societies. For example, in this article, the writer mentioned that women are required to wear abayas outside home but he/she should have mention that it's a religious order rather than men's abuse against women. The writer also didn't talk about whether people over there are satisfied with their lives or not. Who said women can't get divorced or hardly obtain it! Who said women can't appear in courts!! Women can go everywhere and do whatever they want but of course with their Hijab and modest abayas, which (abayas) from a western perspective might be considered violating of women's rights. I don't like to argue in this topic but I really see you talking about things that are not true. Last year, I decided to get divorced, it didn't take more than one month and without any problems. If there are some exceptions then I think they are everywhere not only in Middle East societies, and these problems mainly because of the couples not because of religion or of women's rights.
All the arab women should just leave. I believe there are a lot of Chinese men that need partners. There problem solved!
@CatastropheCathy
u make no sense at all.
& for the record all my chinese & Korean female neighbours and roomates have american boyfriends LOL. As if you don't have american females!! @_@
just a couple of points of history and Christianity: churches did not sit idly by during slavery. Most–not all, but the majority–of anti slavery activists had strong religious motivation. Most of the underground railroad workers did so out of religious convictions. Churches also have provided physical buffers against Westboro Baptist hate; my pastor did that a few years ago. Churches were the main builders of hospitals and schools overseas. Now you can argue that colonization also did a lot of terrible things, and you're right, but there were also a lot of good things. There are people who use a religious basis to follow their own agenda. but there are many faithful Christians who work for dignity, prosperity, and rights for everyone, Christian or not. I have met them and seen them work, here and overseas. I worked in East Africa, and I saw, at that time, when this fanatical islam had not yet hit there, Christians and Muslims working together to provide food, tutoring, clothing and medical care to street children, regardless of their faith or gender.
@Judy
of course no religion from God would courage slavery, violence, inequality or killing innocent people. But what to say to those who as Suzan said just take the extreme examples and start judging Islam as a religion. I know so many Christians who are tolerant and good but at the same time I know many who aren't and as u see in this page there r many examples. KKK is an extreme Christian group and as muslims we didn't judge Christianity through this example or any others. I mean in each religion there r extreme groups who just represent themselves & not the religion which they claimed they belong to .......
@rana, we should be looking at what a belief system teaches. Christianity does not its followers to do what the KKK did. However, Islamic jihadists justify their violent actions against non-Muslims based on the teaches in the Qur'an and unfortunately moderate or reformist Muslims can not theologically refute them.
Equal rights for women means: 1) Women are able to vote freely – and each woman's vote is equal to a man's vote – and each woman is guaranteed the ability to vote alone in the voting booth (so she cannot be coerced), 2)Women are able to obtain as much education as any man and can work in any career field as any man for the same pay as any man, 3)Women are not given different laws to live by: If a man can drive so can a woman, if a man can go out to a restaurant alone so can a woman, men and women are treated as equals in court (including divorce court), 4)Women are free to worship as they please – if they desire to change religions or leave religion altogether that is their right.
Those are universal rights. They are not "Western" – they are God-given rights for all human beings both male and female. At this time in our world there are a handful of nations that have openly opposed God-given equal rights for women as outlined above. And, those nations have been primarily governed by Islamic practices. There is most certainly a correlation there. While Islam might have been revolutionary in its treatment of women many centuries ago, today the sad fact is that Islamic nations on the balance have not given women the status that God has intended for them – as equal partners with men on earth. In fact, these nations have instituted laws that allow for the torture and abuse specifically of the wives and sisters in society – through legalized rape (forced marriages and forced intercourse within marriage), punishing rape victims, turning a blind eye to or, in some cases even legalizing, so-called "honor killings" which are really just open murder, domestic violence (such as the ability to beat your wife if you are married), and even slavery (as can be seen in Saudi Arabia where female immigrants are enslaved in households).
This is a very, very serious problem. And, dismissing these problems, trying to explain them away, turning to events that happened literally centuries ago, or out-and-out denial of these very real problems only serves to punish the women who live in Islamic countries all the more.
Crime is not higher in the Western World than the Islamic World. Rather, what we consider crime in places such as Europe and the United States is considered perfectly legal in the Islamic World. So, yes, our abuse rate appears higher – but that is because the Islamic World protects abuse and refuses to see abuse as, well, abuse. If you have make some murder legal (such as honor killings) then, of course, you lower your murder rate. The Islamic World is not a safe place to be for any woman. It is less safe than the Western World because if you are a woman attacked in the Islamic World you will face punishment yourself and/or the crime will be ignored – your abuser or murderer might actually even be congratulated!
The day that I can walk openly by myself in any Islamic country without a headscarf and wearing trousers without being harrassed, followed, or even attacked is the day that I can possibly hope Equal Rights *might* be coming to those nations. The day that I can divorce my husband in any Islamic nation's court and receive equal treatment as him regarding parental rights, financial settlements, and property dispersal is the day that I can say Equal Rights have begun to those nations. The day that I can marry whomever I want, change religions to whatever I want, and vote for whomever I want without coercion or threats or acts of violence in any Islamic nation is the day that I can say Equal Rights is in those nations.
Sadly, this is not the case in the Islamic World today.
Well said and thank you for saying it!
You wrote "Crime is not higher in the Western World than the Islamic World"
All the murder, armed robberies, school shootings plus all these people that go in their place of work and gun down their workers in cold blood...
You are only fooling your self, look up the rate of the crimes that I mentioned your self.
@Me
If women were treated as bad as you claim in ALL the Muslim countries then how were they allowed to be heads of state (Pakistan and Indonesia)?
We all know what happened to Benazir Bhutto...
@Robert you wrote;
"Islamic jihadists justify their violent actions against non-Muslims based on the teaches in the Qur'an and unfortunately moderate or reformist Muslims can not theologically refute them."
Sorry but that is totally false, the Koran is innocent of these acts that encourage killing innocent people.
On the other hand here is a verse from the bible to directly go and kill kids;
1 Samuel 15
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Too bad for us non-Muslims the Qur'an does not consider us innocent.
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers...
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves...
SHAKIR: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers...
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029
Your quote from the Bible are specific commands for a particular times and place, not universal commands for all believers for all time to make war against unbelievers, as we see in the Qur'an.
I agree with AAA....
you just took a verse fromt the Quran without contextualizing it....
before you say... oh here it says this & there it says this.... you have to look at the situation
the Quran was revealed over 20+ years... and at varioius times, the situation was different for the Muslims.... that verse you mentioned is specifically for a specific situation that the Muslim faced at the time of the revelation of the verse....
generally speaking.... killing anyone, whether Muslim or not, is prohibited (see Quran chpater 5, verse 33). Plus i advice you that for the verses you mentioned, read up commmentary on them (and the whole chapter) just so that you have a better understanding of the verse
May peace be with you
@Jia,
Thank you and peace to you as well.
If Qur'an 9:29 and 48.29 are for "a specific situation that the Muslims faced at the time of the revelation of the version" why are Islamic Jihadists killing non-Muslims today and justifying their actions based on this verse? Perhaps they are the ones who should read commentary on these verses so they can better understand them. The Islamic Jihadist, not the moderate Muslim, are the ones I, and many other non-Muslims, are most concerned about.
Do you mean Qur'an 5:32 instead of 5:33?
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
Because Qur'an 5:33 says
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
I hear Qur'an 5:32 mentioned a lot as an example of how the Qur'an prohibits killing anyone. But when it is mentioned the "We ordained for the Children of Israel..." part is left out.
So, this verse is really a warning to the Jews to not fight the rule of the Muslims and if they do Qur'an 5:33 tells them what will happen to them.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.032
I realize it may not always sound like it, but I truly wish the Islamic and non-Islamic worlds could find a way to live together as equals in peace.
its interesting you made the suggestion that "islamic jihadist" should read the commentary... i mean don't they have to be able to read in order for them to actually read the commentary. The thing with them is that they either don't know how to read or they have never really tried to understand they meannig behind the verse or they simply don't care as long as things serve their purpose. jihadist call anyone they want "kafir" or "infidel" even if that person is a Muslim and doesn't agree with them.
Another thing i noticed is that you mentioned "The Islamic Jihadist, not the moderate Muslim, are the ones I, and many other non-Muslims, are most concerned about", The fact is some ppl actually don't bother differenciating between the two and assume every muslim is a "jihadist" unless they prove so otherwise. For some reason, your anti-Muslim sentiments are apparent...and they don't really seem to be directed against only Jihadist.
Anyways I don't wish to argue about that furthur.
And my hope, like yours is that EVERYONE no matter their faith, background, race, gender, lives together peacefully and not let our differences come between that.
@Jia,
re: For some reason, your anti-Muslim sentiments are apparent
What have I written that you consider to be anti-Muslim sentiments or am I anti-Muslim because I ask questions about the tenets of Islam, especially as they pertain to non-Muslims?
You misunderstand the Koran verse, this is talking about a war situation, if you read more you would see that.
As for the bible verse I sent you,
You wrote"Bible are specific commands for a particular times and place" so you you are saying that in that particular time God commanded an act of terror? I tell you that there is no excuse for targeting children no matter time or place or cause.
Children are innocent and God would NEVER order anyone to go kill them.
I don't understand much about the old testment!!!! Jesus come to give life and hope. "For God so love the world that he send his belove son to die for our sin, whoever believe it him should not pearish but to him enternal life". If you look at Christain today. It will tell you alot about their God. I am talking about the "Born Again Christains".
Like Buck, I too am not that familiar with the Old Testament and I agree with you that this sounds horrible.
As I understand it, this is a message from Samuel, the spiritual leader of Israel to Saul, the military leader of Israel to punish the Amalekites for their actions hundreds of years before when they were the first to attack the Israel after their escape from Egypt. Samuel told Saul this was a message from God. It is thought that this was a test of obedience for Saul as well as Israel but also speaks to the concept of just retaliation. The Amalekites attacked the weakest and most vulnerable of Israel and God wanted to make the judgment fit the sin.
As far as the Quranic verse being about a war situation, that does not offer the non-Muslim any comfort (or safety) when you consider that Islamic Jihadists continually claim that the West is at war with Islam, be it by an invading army, cartoon, or by banning the wearing of the hijab and thus holy war against the unbeliever is justified as self-defense.
You wrote;
"Islamic Jihadists continually claim that the West is at war with Islam, be it by an invading army, cartoon, or by banning the wearing of the hijab and thus holy war against the unbeliever is justified as self-defense."
Think of the invading army you talked about, for the last 2000 years the west always finds an excuse to be present there, until now, why is that? why don't they ever leave?
To me these people are extremest, I don't think that way and I do not teach my kids to think that way and non of my friends think that way.
Google football violence in Europe.
In Europe they kill, fight and hurt each other over a football game (soccer), that's why i am not surprised to see some fanatics that call them selves Muslims try to kill some one over a cartoon or something silly of that nature.
Personally, I would love to see all American forces pulled out of Muslim lands.
Yes, football fans have been violent but football rules do not teach that violence is part of the game. The point I have been trying to make through all my comments is that the tenets of Islam are inherently responsible for how Muslim women are treated and how violence is encouraged against the non-Muslim.
Given the role Islam plays in every aspect of Muslim life, I am concerned, as a non-Muslim, that these tenets are going to prevent, or at least impede, the ability of our communities to live together in peace as equals. Having said that, I do not believe all Muslims follow every tenet of Islam anymore than I believe all Christians follow every teaching of Christianity and, for what it is worth, I am glad that you do not think like Islamic Jihadists, nor teach your kids to think like them and have no friends who think like them.
To everyone who is saying Islam oppressed women....
Of the 5 largest majority Muslim countries, 4 of them have had a female head of state and/or government.
Of the 5 largest majority Christian countries, 2 of them have had a female head of state and/or government.
And how does that translate to respect for those women who are not heads of state?
http://arabnews.com/lifestyle/offbeat/article169982.ece
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks.html
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/01/23/134704.html
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=203120
There are two Muslim countries that require a headscarf . Iran and Saudi Arabia
There are two Muslim countries that ban the headscraf. Turkey and Tunisia.
Other than that Muslim countries do not dictate how a woman must dress
Why couldn't all Afghan girls be like her?
I WANT ALL MUSLIM GIRLS TO BE LIKE HER:
THAT WAY WE CAN FIGHT YOU FILTHY KAFIRS (infidels)
GOD BLESS THE MUJAHIDEEN!! aLLaH Hu AKBAR!
Bring it. The Global Anti-Jihad is on.
I KILL YOU FILTHY CAPITALIST ZIONIST PIG.
I'm waiting...