Moammar Gadhafi was killed Thursday in his hometown of Sirte, Libya. CNN's Fareed Zakaria, who interviewed Gadhafi in 2009, discusses the man, the cult and the future of Libya in the Q&A below.
Q: When you heard Gadhafi was dead, what went through your mind?
Fareed Zakaria: I was not surprised. I never thought Moammar Gadhafi would give up because he was not a bureaucrat like Hosni Mubarak. He had not been standing in line in the regime and it became his turn to be the dictator. He was a revolutionary. He was a guy who had launched a colonel’s coup. He had always been a fighter – romantic, mad, crazy – so I always suspected he would go down fighting.
I also thought there was much less to his position than people made out. He did not actually have lots of tribes loyal to him. He had paid off a bunch of them. But once the money starts drying up, that kind of loyalty disappears pretty quickly.
I also thought it was a sad statement about the way in which he and his sons plundered the country – wrecked it economically – and were unable to provide some kind of transition to a decent next stage.
Q: If, in fact, both of Gadhafi's sons are dead in addition to the father, this represents the complete end of any hope that any Gadhafi ever might reemerge and take charge.
Zakaria: I think that’s right though there was very little hope in any event. I interviewed Gadhafi when he was in New York, and at that time I had negotiated with Mutassim, the guy we've seen now dead, and he struck me as a playboy; he struck me as the rich kid. He had just come back from Las Vegas in a private plane with girls and God knows what else. These were not people who could really have succeeded Gadhafi. Gadhafi had become more crazy than usual and his sons were running things, but at the end of the day Gadhafi was the center of that regime. The sons were spoiled brats who I couldn't ever see being able to succeed. Mutassim came across as extremely immature - more a young mafia gangster than a leader in waiting.
Saif Gadhafi was a more cerebral character. He was smart. He often spoke very movingly about trying to liberalize Libya. But there was another side to him. He was a great playboy and spent all his time in Monte Carlo and the casinos of Europe. Neither of these people had the capacity or will to be real nation builders. In the context of being the son of Moammar Gadhafi, Saif was impressive. Not on his own. I think that what you'll see is that the coterie around Gadhafi will crumble entirely. This was a one-man regime; it was a one-man cult and now that man is gone.
Q: It is unclear whether Moammar Gadhafi’s son, the person who was expected to be his heir apparent, Saif al-Islam is alive or dead. If he is alive, how does that change the arithmetic in Libya about who could be leading there?
Zakaria: I don’t think it changes the actual arithmetic of the ground. Saif was a creature of Moammar Gadhafi. This was a one-man regime - a one-man cult. Saif did not have the background or the support in the country – the support among the armed forces or intelligence services – to have ever run Libya, let alone in the circumstance it is in now.
But if he is still alive, it does add an air of uncertainty to the fate of Libya. One of the things that has been very difficult in Libya is the sense of uncertainty – the sense that they haven’t actually finished the revolution, that there was still a great deal of uncertainty. That uncertainty has made Libya harder for business in terms of oil and other things as well.
Q: What do we really know about the new leaders? We have all seen the report from Amnesty International that the transitional government has tortured prisoners. There is a history of tribal splits. There are reports that Al Qaeda affiliates are is in the leadership in Libya. What do you know for sure about the new leaders?
Zakaria: What we know for sure is that they don’t control much of Libya. A lot of reports are really about groups of militias or soldiers that have done bad things. It’s not clear they were directed centrally by the National Transitional Council. Many of the people on the Council are educated, pro-Western people – some of them were within the Gadhafi regime but left because they wanted a better future for Libya. Many of them are deeply frustrated that they have very little control.
Just a day before the news of Gadhafi's death, Mahmoud Jibril, the head of the Interim Government in Libya, said to Time Magazine that he was going to resign. He said he was going to resign because there was a sense of chaos and lawlessness in Libya and that he just didn’t have the tools - a big army - to stabilize the country and then govern it. I think what you’re seeing is a kind of free-for-all. Some of the groups on the ground are doing very nasty stuff.
Q: Given that, is America able to disengage at this point? NATO is saying its mission is done. Is America’s mission not done?
The Obama Administration has been very disciplined about not getting over-involved in Libya. They’ve drawn a clear line to say, “We don’t own Libya.” Colin Powell said before the Iraq War, “If you break it you buy it.” Well, we didn’t break it. So it’s possible for the Obama Administration to continue the way it has with some support and engagement - but nothing that requires major numbers of American troops on the ground or anything like that. The Obama Administration will be able to stay somewhat at arms length. That of course assumes that Libya doesn’t descend into complete chaos, which at this point does not seem likely.
Q: What does this mean for Syria and Bashar al-Assad? Does this change the balance of power or likely outcome there?
It’s not good news for President Assad because it suggests that in the end of the day these kinds of regimes are vulnerable, fragile and will eventually go. But that could take a long time. The situation in Syria is quite different from Libya. You don’t have the geographic split in Libya between East and West. You don’t have rebels or opposition taking one part of the country and raising an army and being supplied from that place. You also have a great reluctance of the West to get involved militarily, largely because of the sense that it would be very nasty. You wouldn’t have local forces on the grounds you could assist.
So I think the obituaries for Assad are premature. I think he will probably be able to survive this in the short run. In the long run, will he be able to? Probably not. He runs a brutally repressive regime and has a very narrow base of support. The Allawites are a 10% minority within Syria. But so far within Syria you have not seen the kind of geography or situation that allows the opposition to mobilize that would create some kind of fighting force or center of opposition from which you could launch some kind of regime-toppling event.
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Huh, he didn't went while "fighting", his convoys, fleeing the scene, were just stroke by french planes, he was then hiding surrounded by bodyguards in a drain next to the road, etc. Meanwhile Mubarak that you consider a bureaucrat has real military credentials, Gadhafi just stayed that low-level colonel having done a -then bloodless- coup with the king abroad for medical treatment...
Jesus, way to miss the point entirely.
The point is Mubarak spent decades working in the government in both military and civilian roles before he inherited his job when Sadat was killed. He was an inside-the-system guy. Gadhafi was not. He got his job by taking it by force.
Yes, he was fleeing at the time, but that what you freaking do when you're being strafed by fighter aircraft, genius. The point is, he held out until the bitter end.
Good riddance to him in any case.
Good point.
"The point is, he held out until the bitter end."
Yeah, right. Just like Saddam Hussein (who was also found cowering in a hole).
Gaddafi was 69 and nobody knew his state of mind and health. He was alleged to be hiding in a concrete pipe. He could have done better than Saddam Hussein.
Gadhafi convoy was hit by the Nato planes that were ever present in the the skies of libya.Nobody is asking that question because it was not Nato job to kill Ghadhafi.
Acccording to the video evidence, he didn't go down fighting–he went down whimpering, as most all dictators do.
you are MORONIC fu*k and nothing more, FACT!
Gaddafi did weird things in the public. In a 40 minute interview with John Simpson of BBC, he broke wind loudly without feeling embarrassed.
ya. lets kill him!
What's wrong with that? I do it all the time. It is a nice way to tell those around you that you are comfortable in their company. Try it, most people just smile.
Every human on earth knows that God is great! It is the terroristic tone that is disturbing when some belief-blinds screem out Allahu akber, alaluiah etc..
It's not the old world anymore where terrorists would become national heroes. The killed bodies of terrorists doesn't have to be buried on a secret place.
Would you please try to include arts of humanitarian works and initiatives too in education and academy awards etc; without which science is meaningless in our human existence?
There is not much to further discover above 350 km above this planet without global public participation!
Religious tones are dangerous for humanity and must remain confined inside home in practice but not in a country's political level.
–Expressed with friendly feelings and without prejudice!
Shahislam
Who (which nation(s)) will have to pay for the post-revolutionary buildup of these new states of the Middle East? Since the dictators hoarded all the money and built relatively few public infrastructure buildings for a stable state, will it come from an international fund?
All the money frozen in Gadafi's and Libyas bank account
Libya got plenty of oil.
Actually, they don't have a lot of oil. What little oil they had they were selling to the French. Then they changed their mind and were going to sell it to the Chinese, instead. And that was Gadaffi's big mistake. He'd still be in power if he agreed to sell his oil to France instead of China.
So now we're in the middle of another Middle East quagmire for oil - for the French - after Barack Obama said he wouldn't get us into anymore "dumb" wars.
Fareed do you think that your biased reporting on the middle east has any guilt in your heart for killings of the innocent? After all people like you are staging media wars on public opinion to wage war on defenseless nations?
He's the only one that makes sense or speaks any truth. Figures a degenerate wouldn't like him much.
Payman I have innocence in my pancreas from having mad sayings from you tongue. You stageing BLOOG wars upon brain people like meself. I am praying of you to feel less guilt for biased sayings of web blog.
We must take it easy as God, in what we trust, make things happen through humans for humans or by creations for creations.
What is the significance of Ghadafi being killed as opposed to taken prisoner and tried before the ICC?
Tim Libya's in a revolution. Gadahfi should have left town, that is his own fault. I have to believe some of his despot friends would have given him sanctuary. When a revolution happens it is rare that the leaders of the losing side survivie. A few exceptions exist, General Lee for one. But even Jefferson Davis fled to Canada before his capital was captured. Who knows what would have happened to Jefferson Davis were he captured. No he fled because he had good sense. The ICC will never be able to police the world. They have no military and what country would turn their sovernty over to any organization outside their own government? The ICC is a tool not a solution. Good ridence to Gadahfi.
"what country would turn their sovernty over to any organization outside their own government?"
Well, the USA is working on that a little at a time
Jeferson Davis was captured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis#Imprisonment_and_later_years
Tim, that would be the proper way but not Hollywood style I suppose ...
Fareed, thank you once again for your clear-minded, articulate observations on the Middle East and the Arab Spring. You are a true journalist as opposed to the talking heads uttering sound bytes. I hope CNN realizes the value you offer to balanced reporting–even if many don't grasp the details. My degree is in journalism; I can recognize those who were trained properly.
Uh huh.
Fareed's a lot like Obama – sounds TERRIFIC, until you actually start listening and realize there's not a whole lot of "there" there.
I disagree. I read his book Future of Freedom in 2004....was excellent. Having worked in many challenging countries it provide a great template for understanding what is important and what is not.
I am generally dismayed with the quality of what counts as journalism these days. Fareed Zakaria is a very positive exception.
Fareed is the poster boy for pseudo intellectualism. He appears and sounds very refined, he's articulate, and the media absolutely love him, but his liberal views make no sense in the real world.
What liberal views? That Gadaffi's sons were irresponsible playboys who would have been incapable of leading the country? That Gadaffi's support was not as deep as some have claimed? How, exactly, are these views "liberal"?
Oxford's Practical Ethics: Gaddafi is dead - but don't cheer: http://bit.ly/ntjNQR
Tell that to the guys in the video!
Like I have said before...obama leads only when its a layup...he likes to always look good. "leading from behind" is the new fetish now... but I wonder..if everyone starts to wanna lead from behind, whose gonna lead from the front?
using drones from las vegas is easy, sending in seal team 6 is easy...dealing with iran and syria are major problems and so far, I dont ANY real strategy that is going to work...sanctions are marginally effective at best...ONLY the military option will be successful. Will we have to confront it one way or another at some point in time? yes. So what are we waiting for??? With forces coming out of iraq and afghanistan, and forces that could be rotated from germany and south korea, I think the US has more than enough wherewithal economically and militarily to deal with iran properly. Obama even said it in his oslo nobel speech....sometimes military interventions are necessary...containment in this era with this foe wont work!
the question is then...does he have the smarts and the guts to do what's right ...not for him personally, but for the long term safety of the US and the world .....
Nonsense. Having a nostalgic moment for "W"? Or just another repub who can't bring himself to say "well done" re Pres. Obama? Seems nothing but repub utterances would meet with your approval. Wasn't listening to you before.
The Pres. did what he did in spite of rebub naysayers, built a real coalition to get it done cooperatively. One result: US is favorably viewed by Libyan citizens. "W" and Dickie could never manage that. Never Dickie from the front.
Grow up.
I'm kinda surprised by all the negative comments this morning from Republicans. This is clearly a positive development, achieved by supporting the Libyan population instead of launching another trillion dollar war with US taxpayer funds. Not sure why, but I'd expected all these right-wing "patriots" to take a day off and offer some minimal congratulations before returning to mindless Obama bashing. At least McCain is man enough to admit that Obama's approach has been vindicated....
Trillions of dollars instead of thousands of lybian's lives...
I think Obama is doing the best foreign policy since Franklin D. Roosevelt. He is doing a great job fixing the disastrous blunders of the last administration that got us involved in two stupid and senseless wars resulted in loses of lives and treasure and lead to a lot of debt. What was the result? Eventually leading to an Iraq more friendly to Iran and not to US. Our reputation is totally damaged in the world and the world lost respect for American military power, because we have to leave now Iraq and Afghanistan without any results favorable for USA.
He eliminated our enemies with very efficient approach despite his battle to improve the ruined domestic economic situation which resulted from unregulated and irresponsible business practices by the banks and real-estate and insurance companies. I think you are dreaming of another crazy person to start a new war, maybe this time with Iran or Pakistan? No more wars and another 4 more years somebody who is smart and can lead. Please no more crazy people who think they can fix problems by starting wars all around the world by wasting our resources while all other countries building their infrastructure, educating their people and developing renewable energy resources to become independent from oil.
Alex. Well said. The long term interest of the nation alludes the Republicans in their pursuit of ousting a President who understand the world and inherited a country that is heading to the lower levels in intelectual pusuits: math and sciences.
Why is Fareed Z's opinion so relevant? Why would he be any more or less "surprised" than anybody by anything? He greatly overestimates the import of his own perspective.
I agree. Who the hell is Fareed anyway?
Because he is one of the key commentators on international and political topics for CNN, whether you agree with him or not? He is also one of the last people to interview a direct line to Gadhafi (his son) so his perspective is somewhat fresh? This isn't a random opinion piece, these are question being asked. Not sure how that translates into ego but hey, you missed the point entirely anyways so there it is.
It's because he has brown skin like Obama huh? I know the round-about bigots are in here.
Gadhafi was directly responsible for the death of at least hundreds and maybe as much as a thousand Americans. Terrorst under Gadhafi's orders blew Pan Am flight 103 and murdered so many Americans kids it tears your heart out to think of it. I for one am glad the tyrant and terrorist is dead. America never forgets! You can run and hide and stay just out of reach of U.S. forces but some day somewhere we or someone inspired by us will get you. Islam and most decent Arabs are tired of terrorism and hate. They are tired of having their relegion hijacked by despot Imams and regimes. Arab nations may not want democracies exactly like the U.S. but they want freedom, womens rights, and hope of a better future. I believe the Arab world may not openly embrace the U.S. but I don't believe decent Muslims around the world hate us either. They can't openly support us but they can support freedom and human rights. Good For Them, Joe.
I believe in the power of "decent muslims", who believe in and follow the teachjngs of the Koran, about as much as, in hindsight, I would believe in "decent Germans" who believed in Hitler and followed his teachjngs in Mein Kampf.
The world must respond to the actions of a society led by radical lunatics as if that society is exclusively comprised of radical lunatics, for the resources of such society are appropriated and applied to achieve the goals and priorities of the fanatics in charge.
joe you write like you were standing beside gaddaffi when he gave the terrorists orders to kill
remember the girl from al sabbah family residing in the US who was nowhere near a hospital in Kuwait
saying she saw Iraqi soldiers killing babies taken from their mothers and Incubators
also do not forget bush and blair lying about WMD in Iraq
and man all those drone attacks that killed 100.000 women and children
which you conveniently call collateral damage
and last your human rights record stinks
abu ghraib,guantamao, secret prisons
torture ,kidnappings
political assasinations through your various proxies
That dirt bag's dead? Hooray!
Nice.Very nice.I don't think you even know who this man was or where Lybia is.All u know is that USA won again.Congratulations.There is an old Serbian say,and I hope I can translate it well:"You can do all you want but not as long as you want"
oh well said Milan ... just like milosevic couldnt do for as looong as he wanted
you and me are also made from dirt and not more then that,if you want to believe???
All of this could have been avoided if he wasn't so addicted to power, and would have simply met the people's legitimate demands. What's really tragic is what is currently happening in syria, iran, yemen, and elsewhere. The people there are largely unarmed and incapable of freeing themselves, hence the second amendment.
Yeah, I've had the same thought. Its weird that most of these tyrants have to be killed in order to get them out of power. I guess they are simply drunk with power, out of touch with reality and can't think clearly. Gaddafi could have arraigned a peaceful transition and be enjoying retirement...his death and the death of so many fellow Libyans was unnecessary.
Ok explain this to me. When LTTE leader Prabakaran was killed, they called for a war crimes investigation. But the video clearly shows that Gadaffi was alive when he was captured, and then you see that he is dead... NOW.. UN, BAN KI MOON, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, news media such as CNN and Aljazeera... WHERE ARE YOUR WAR CRIMES INVESTIGATIONS!!!! HYPOCRITES! yes I am sad that Gaddafi is gone. Im just disgusted by the double standards of the the so called 'saviours of human rights'.
This just shows how shallow you can be. It’s not about Prabakaran, but killing of 200,000 civilian Tamils in one go…..
ado de kauwe umba puka pennala hutha kiyanawwa
very sad about gadhaffi and it shows why democracy is so important. If G had a touch more wisdom anbd arranged a smooth transition of power, his family could become a significant political party and countru safe. G' sins woiuld have been forgtoeen and he would gone down in history a great leader. Instead the country he spend yeazrs making storng is in ruins and he has died a bloody tyrant. power curiopts
World's gone crazy!Killings in the name of peace.That's just not right.
This was never about peace. It was overturning the old and destructive for something else (of what is hard to say). Anything less than dedicated confrontation would have been put down with extreme prejudice..
Why are you so blind?For 42 yrs Gadaffi was a partner,someone they work (and have fun).For 42 yrs they did not care for Lybian people.I dont buy this with oil involved.
@Vii Just like Milosevic.He was also a USA partner and I was against him even when USA was not.
While certainly no one will miss Gaddafi, my concern is that Israel is no safer at this point. Just yesterday, it was reported that Egypt intercepted a load of missiles that were being smuggled from Libya to the Palestinians (via Sinai). More than likely, these were people outside of Gaddafi's circle who had acquired the weapons (probably abandoned) with the intent of smuggling them.
Also, the NTC has made it pretty clear that Libyan jews are NOT welcome to return.
While we can be glad to be rid of a dictator, the long-term effects have yet to be determined. If anything, Israel should be on guard all the more.
Eventually, all extreme inequalities of wealth distribution meet with a more or less violent end. Enough people just get fed up enough with belonging to the lot of people unable to provide themselves and their dear ones with lives of even modestly sustained dignity. Silent. fearful majorities rise to support the igniting few. But the discontent is shared by a majority, not by a rebel minority. And sooner or later, it always meets its end. That the injustice is caused by a one-man show only makes it easier to contain, eliminate and move on. It would be morally satisfying, for some, if the NTC could absolve itself from intentionally killing gaddafi – it could disband all doubt about, new faces, but same shame. That this would be done at the expense of quickly moving on to rebuild and repair the lives and hopes of real human beings with real families, kids and friends, well, that would be just as callous as cold-bloodedly killing the dictator.
I'm glad Gadaffi is gone, but Fareed Zakaria is a pseudo intellectual.
US & NATO will decalre National Transitional Council a terrorist organization after 5-6 years..i declare them today.
Of course they will...same was done to Saddam,Osama,wouldn't be suprised!!!
Fareed lies just as well in print as he does on TV! Died fighting? Hiding in a drainage pipe? While sneaking out of the country? Give me a break. If this guy could string together 2 sentences in a row that were true, it would be a miricle. It seems so many of his ilk in the media cannot deal with reality when it doesn't come out the way they want it too. so, they just make things up! Pathetic
Interesting comment on the head of the Libyan rebel force. There is no set way to install a democracy but when ours was created following the War of Independence it was guided by our commanding general of the rebel army, George Washington. Washington was like the modern day Petraeus, part civilian, part military, constantly traveling to talk with people, get their opinion, work out the problems to make strategies work. It was not that he just had status, he kept that in check and was much liked as a fellow rebel wanting freedom for all.
Watch the video someone made with their phone. He was beaten to death. Not a nice way to go whoever you are.
How many leaders would have stayed till the end,not obama,cam moron.sarcozy,there all talk ,get your sons and daughters ready for the slaughter the war they will create soon will end all wars but hey you can rest in the knowledge they will be safe and there offspring ,there are players and those who have been played WAKE UP.........
Rest in peace Her majesty the King of Africa. You were a great african and your continent will never forget you. All Africa is mourning for you. Soon or later the truth will be told about all of this, and your statues will be raised all across Africa your beloved continent. Requiescat in Pace .
wow, you can really see which comments here are posted by republicans. they still dont get the point and i reckon they never will. Republicans are so clever in being stupid that compared to a donkey they even make the donkey look like a professor. Obama is trying to educate you idiots. Now, have a coke and a smile and learn some values for crying out loud. And go watch foxnews. It was especially designed for gullible morons with no brains and ability to think logically.
Pres. Obama ha handled not only Libya, but d entire Arab spring with immense discipline & maturity. All ye repubs, watch n learn!
Let's give him another Nobel prize for peace.Yeah,right!
Pres. Obama has handled not only Libya, but d entire Arab spring with immense discipline & maturity. All ye repubs, watch n learn!
Fareed remember the rolling stones song sympathy for the devil – "When you ask who killed the kennedy's when after all it was you and me" – you killed Libya. You by not being willing to discuss the pro's and cons. And now saying we didnt break libya – whose payroll are you on – or is there a propaganda drug you take >?
We didn't break Libya. Moammar Gadaffy did. Now it's up to the Libyan people to fix it.
After all, it is their country, isn't it?
The world will miss the "Real leader" no matter whoever was He!!!
At least he was not like other puppets of the Modern world.
From whom the new generations will learn the qualities of Leadership???
After all we can just talk, no body has courage to face the truth.
With all his money, he should of been hob~nobbing with the Wall Street elite.
Should a fraction of gaddafi's money go to employees of Pan American Airways who lost their pensions due to bankruptcy which followed the bombing of PA103? A former minister says he has proof that Gaddafi ordered the bombing. The victims have been compensated but the employees who lost everything...JOB, HEALTHCARE, and PENSION have never been compensated, the PBGC pays less than 30% of our pension. Most are senior citizens still working more than one job.
maybe easier to become a libyan citizen ....
King of africa rest in peace and to all who say is for democracy or freedom,wat of palestine wat are about ppl die for food in north korea
The king of all Libya and the Emperor of all Africa ended up in a drain pipe like the Emperor of all Mesopotamia ended in a hole like a ground hog. Being responsible for the death of many thousand people his family is calling him a Martyr and they want his body. Make him into pieces and feed with his body parts the hungry hyenas of the Africa. May be some other dictators take a lesson.
what nonsense are people saying here. if you dont know the truth, why not keep your mouth shut so that those who know can say it. for those who dont know the truth time will tell and revelations will come.
DEAR ZAKARIA
THE BOYS ARE DEAD NOW .... THE DAD WAS A DICTATOR ....LAS VEGAS EVERYONE GOES THERE ....
THE WORD "PLAYBOY" IS AMERICAN ....
ALL CELEBRETIES INCLUDING BILL CLINTON HAD AN AFFAIR....
SO WHAT'S NEW ....
THE DICTATOR DROVE HIS COUNTRY AND FAMILY INTO POLITICAL SUICIDE WITH THE HELP OF NATO ...LIBYA HAS LOST 50,000 LIVES OF HUMAN BEINGS ....AND MISS HILARY CLINTON ...SAYS "WOW":
HAVE A NICE WEEKEND ...
I WOULD QUIT THE JOB .,....YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE WORLD......
Syria's next.
assad going nowhere! terrorists from outside like libyans,... are nothing more but dog food in syria and we people will make it to stay like that.
killing Gaddafi was a good idea for some and was not a good idea for others but the simple trust is that the wounds marks in Libya remain wet those wounds can never dry. what has been destroy is gone for ever. HAD I KNOWN WILL ALWAYS COMES LAST.
Qa-daffy's Killing was a high point of they year!
If anyone does a crime, they are supposed to be arrested and charged in courts. Why was that not done? Why then do we have courts? Everyone learns a lesson from seeing what others do. Is this a new lesson that who ever does a crime should be killed??? no more arrest and courts???? Sometimes back there was also an article in the news that the boy who claimed to have killed Gaddafi has died????End of the story??