Editor's Note: The following text is from GlobalPost, which provides views — important, moving or just odd — from around the world.
By Fred Weir, GlobalPost
As Syria's uprising against Bashar al-Assad deteriorates into a potentially nation-destroying civil war, most of the diplomatic discourse has been dominated by a high-stakes blame-game between Russia and the West over who is most at fault for the horrific massacre and mayhem.
The most recent example: Monday’s tense meeting between the Russian and US presidents in Mexico, in which Obama failed to get Putin’s help in easing Assad from power.
So far Russia has been losing this rhetorical battle. But the Kremlin insists that its case transcends mere self-interest, and points the way back to a world governed by the rule of law.
Moscow's community of foreign policy experts — many of whom routinely excoriate the Kremlin — seem uncommonly united in support of Russia’s stance on Syria. They argue that the Kremlin is adhering to a conservative set of international values, based on respect for national sovereignty and the right of Syria's people to sort out their own future.
The West, they claim, is out of legal bounds and pursuing its own geopolitical interests thinly disguised as a humanitarian "responsibility to protect" in a manner that is reckless, hypocritical and — perhaps the unkindest cut — incompetent.
"The West talks in terms of noble goals, but their actions tend to wreck any stability, threaten the lives of millions, and leave people worse off than before," says Yevgeny Satanovsky, president of the independent Institute of Middle Eastern Studies in Moscow. "I don't carry any brief for the Kremlin, but in the case of Syria, the Russian aim is to try to minimize negative outcomes. Russian approaches may be old fashioned and conservative but, I'm sorry to say, they're more rational than current Western policies."
Russian experts dish out examples of botched Western interventions going back to the 1999 Kosovo war, which Moscow helped to resolve after receiving NATO's assurances that Kosovo would never be given independence; a few years later Kosovo was made independent. The long and inconclusive US occupation of Iraq and the ongoing imbroglio in Afghanistan are cited as examples of "making things worse."
But uppermost in Russian minds is the UN-authorized NATO intervention in Libya last year, which Moscow acquiesced to as a measure to protect civilians, only to see it morph into a full rebel campaign for regime change backed by Western air power.
"We've been lied to repeatedly; not a single promise the West has made to us in the past two decades has been honored," says Sergei Markov, vice president of the Plekhanov Economic University in Moscow and a frequent adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin in the past.
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"We've learned to take our own counsel on problems like Syria. What we see is an extraordinarily difficult situation that threatens to explode into a massive bloodbath. Nobody likes Assad, but if you just remove him the entire state will collapse with awful consequences. We wish we could have an intelligent conversation with Western leaders about this, but so far that hasn't proved possible," he says.
After vetoing (along with China) two UN Security Council resolutions that would have imposed tough sanctions and enabled a process for easing Assad out, Russia got on board with the UN-sponsored Kofi Annan plan, which envisaged democratic reforms and UN observers but no sanctions or outside military interference. With the Annan plan in shreds, and violence spiraling in many parts of Syria, the war of words is heating up again.
Russia's primary argument for its position is that it conforms with international law. Sovereignty is the supreme principle, Russian officials say, and Western attempts to change those rules have not led to good results anywhere.
The fixation on sovereignty is rooted in self-interest, and comes with its own healthy dose of hypocrisy. The Kremlin harbors a deep-seated fear that authorizing outside military force to support rebellious populations might one day be used to license intervention in Russia. And the principle does not seem to apply when Moscow is dealing with its own neighbors in the post-Soviet area; after defeating Georgia in 2008, Moscow effective dismembered its southern neighbor by granting independence to the breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Putin, who has effectively ruled Russia for the past 12 years, viewed the pro-democracy "colored revolutions" that erupted in Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan over the past decade as the creations of foreign intelligence services. When tens of thousands of anti-Kremlin protesters took to the streets of Moscow last December to demand fair elections, his first public response was to blame Hillary Clinton: "She set the tone for some opposition activists, gave them a signal, they heard this signal and started active work," Putin said at the time.
"Russian leaders fear revolution very deeply, and they look with horror on the Arab Spring and the totally disordered changes that have followed in its wake," says Sergei Strokan, a foreign affairs columnist with the Moscow daily Kommersant.
"The only thing that's worse for them is the idea of popular revolution approved of and supported by the West. They observe all that's happening through a conspiratorial lens. Hence they see Western-backed rebels creating a pretext for Western military intervention that leads to pro-Western regime change. The biggest regret in Russian official foreign policy circles, and the worst accusation against (former President Dmitry) Medvedev, is that he authorized our UN delegation to abstain on the Security Council resolution that authorized the use of force to protect civilians in Libya last year. They are determined not to enable anything like that, not ever again," Strokan says.
Russia also has significant financial and political reasons to back Assad.
Syria has been Moscow's most important strategic partner in the Middle East since 1971. It’s been a major customer for Russian arms and engineering goods. Russia currently has about $5 billion in outstanding arms contracts with Syria, plus as much as $15 billion in other traditional military and economic cooperation — including Russia's only foreign military base, a naval refueling station at the Syrian port of Tartous.
More from GlobalPost: Soccer diplomacy in Ukraine
Financially, abiding by Western-backed sanctions never seems to work out in Moscow's favor. Over the past year, Russia has sacrificed about $4.5-billion in broken arms deals with Libya, and lost as much as $13 billion due to UN sanctions against Iran, experts say.
"Moscow is afraid events in Syria will spin out of control," says Alexander Konovalov, president of the independent Institute for Strategic Assessments in Moscow. "We have lots of economic interests that we stand to lose, but this is not the main thing. The loss of political influence is more important, because Syria is the last point in the Middle East where Russia has a major role to play."
Still, the Kremlin has reacted defensively to charges that it is fueling Syria's civil war by continuing to sell arms to Assad. Stung by Hillary Clinton's recent claim that Russia was sending attack helicopters to Syria for use against demonstrators, Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport made public the list of weaponry it does sell to Syria, including anti-aircraft systems, coastal defense missiles and jet trainers. "We supply armaments that are self-[defensive] rather than attack weapons, and there can be no talk about any violations by Russia or Rosoboronexport either de jure or de facto," the agency's spokesman, Igor Sevastyanov, told journalists.
(It also appears that Clinton's claim was incorrect. Syria's fleet of at least 36 Mi-25 "Hind-D" helicopter gunships — a deadly flying artillery platform made famous by Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the 1980's — was purchased from Russia at least 20 years ago. The helicopters Clinton was referring to were recently serviced in Russia, and were being returned to Syria, but no new helicopter contracts have been signed in over ten years, experts say.)
Russia retorts that it's the West, and Sunni-dominated Arab states like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who are smuggling in weapons to fuel the armed rebellion against the Alawite minority rule headed by Assad in Syria.
"We think we know how the world works as well as anyone else, and our diplomats have been active in the Middle East for a long time. We do not have the slightest romantic illusion that something that comes after Assad will be better," says Satanovsky. "We see a religious war shaping up in Syria, and across the region — Sunni against Shia — and we want no part of it. We see all sorts of extremist groups, including Al Qaeda, fighting alongside these anti-Assad rebels and we wonder why you don't seem to notice that ....
"Our Western colleagues point to these terrible atrocities (taking place with increasing frequency in Syria) and say, 'We have to do something!' But your own Western track record shows that you get the regime change you wanted, then lose all interest in the humanitarian problems," he says.
"As for Russia, we've learned to base our policy on national interest. We simply don't believe Western leaders know what they're doing, and we're not listening to all that chatter anymore. So, Russia's Syria policy will remain basically the same, and there is no significant debate over this in the Russian establishment today," he adds.
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Note the "rational" and "moral".
Way to go being objective CNN and totally not biased!
Fightings have broken out in Syria's largest port Latakia. The Russian naval authority based in Syria's port of Tartus was planning to evacuate Russian nationals and military personnel. Some 100.000 Russians are estimated to be in Syria. No order has been given yet, but they are ready to leave when the situation worsens.
Syria had been discussed between Obama and Putin on the sidelines of the G-20 summit in Los Cabos, Mexico. Obama and Cameron had also spoken about the possiblity of granting Assad clemency, would he end regime violence and go to the negotiating table in Geneva. Assad could go to exile in Iran or Russia. Putin supported this proposal.
How do you know? Are you that privileged or are you one of those who has adapted a Syrian rebel?
Putting Russia and the word moral in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Putin is just as evil as Stalin but a little more slick.
Russia and China wish to reserve the right to once again murder their own people en masse without interference from the West. Just think what would have happened if an organized UN force, including a pre-Hitler Germany would have "interfered" with Stalin's murder of tens of millions of his own prosperous farmers and middle class. Who knows when China will need another "Cultural Revolution" aka mass murder spree? Both certainly don't need anyone looking over their shoulders. Today Syria, tomorrow someone may demand actual freedom of speech in these places! I lived a long time in Russia and I can smell the rot in the Kremlin line. At least, to their satisfaction, we let the "Dear Leader" perpetuate the torture and misery of his choice on tens of millions of North Koreans. Now that's moral behavior protecting sovereignty!
Agreed! In almost every press release or statement to the press, China and Russia emphasize how other countries can not "meddle in a country's internal affairs"! What they are really, REALLY scared of, is that the next time THEY repress their own citizens, as Putin is CURRENTLY DOING, and as China is CURRENTLY DOING, the International community will take action against THEM! It's not so far fetched anymore...the world's tolerance for dictators (even when they call themselves "Prime Minister or President"...I cant remember what Putin is currently, he will switch back and forth till he dies apparently!)...the world's tolerance for dictators slaughtering their own people is far lower than it was just a few decades ago...and eventually China AND Russia are going to be in Assad's situation....just watch!
Well said John N. I've been saying this since day one.
I've lived in Russia, Ukraine, and Georgia for years. I'm aware of the regional outlook on Russia and specifically the Russian government. Russia's Putin has no morals, 0, none. He will have every Syrian die, before he gives up his interests in this bloodbath.
u must be a brain washed idiot or one of the ones working for
Syrian must remember China sponsor of pol pot of KhmerRouge Cambodia, it killed millions of its own citizens. A show called killing fields tells it. China's full support for Assad, you know where this is going. Don't buy China products. One way or another, it is killing Syrian people.
Dude, we even elected muslim president so you wont be so angry with us
Dude, Pres. Obama is a Christian. Amazing how people like you perpetuate lies you hear in your church and on Faux news.
You probably think he was born in Kenya also!
Do you have any idea how much vetting he's been through based on his many years in public service? Doubt it Dude, keep smoking!
People as ignorant as you are showing yourself to be should lose their ability to vote! Idiots like you elected Bush!
"We simply don't believe Western leaders know what they're doing, and we're not listening to all that chatter anymore."
What a shame we don't do the same. I, too, don't believe the west knows it's a$$ from shineola.
We constantly do exactly what shouldn't be done, pay the country for defying us, and kiII some civilian.
We haven't a clue foreign OR domestically.
Maybe we SHOULD walk away and focus getting OUR country back together.
watttt???
@john
Idiots like you elected Clinton
the quotations are actually more appropriate, as to not have them would imply Russia's stance IS in fact rational and moral (suggesting that it's a certainty), when these are subjective terms and must therefore be in quotations to reflect the fact that they are merely opinions.
Oh more wisdom from the mullah offspring,
every one notice that his supreme leaders leaves the planet and flies to heaven, to consult with god on earthly matters, and brings back so many good guidance for us humble people of Iran, for example we have public hangings, lashings, beatings, torture, poverty, unemployment, mental disorder on mass scale and so much more in Iran from all the supreme guidance of his supreme leader,
And that's why this humble servant Shahin comes here to guide the rest of the world so we can have some of the enlightenment they have received in Iran
I agree with you.
Russia's rational and moral stance on Syria?
Don't make me laugh!
Russia's leaders (like Dictator Putin) should be ashamed, for allowing Assad to commit such atrocities, in order to protect their financial interests, their military base, and their leverage on power.
Barry, the only difference between USA and Syria is that USA kills citizens of other countries (e.g., Iraq, Vietnam etc) and Syria kills its own people......but to me both are murderous!!!
The Truth:
Israel has special military operatives working to over through Assad’s Syria.
From Wiki Leaks: “Israeli security forces have undergone extensive training prior to the coup to over through the Syrian government (Assad's Syria). Israeli secret military operatives have undergone logistic training to arm and rallied Syrian Citizens to overthrow the Syrian Forces (Strategic Coup).”
Same operations, transmissions, conducted in Libya to topple Muammar Gaddafi.
Radio transmissions are easy to decrypt and bribes disclose secrets.
For over a year – Israel has sent secret service agents, a coup to overthrow Assad’s Syria.
Israel has special military operatives killing thousands of Syrian Armed Forces, Army, Navy, Air Force, Air Defense Force, and Paramilitary Forces.
This Israeli NATO cover up is Mass Genocide the World will Stike Back Destroy The Empire The Oppression of OPEC.
I do not support Israel killing over 10,000 human beings.
Israel’s motive is clearer than Crude, Natural Resources, and relentless Greed.
Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton have armed Israel with U.S. military weapons and weapons of mass destruction. This Israeli armament is the cause of Middle East instability and genocide.
Anyone, any journalist, who denies the truth, breaks the commandments: Thou shall not bear false witness, Thou shall not kill, and Thou shall not steal – should remember – your antimatter, your soul is at stake; Heaven or Hell is for eternity.
Maybe you should go over to Syria. Israel has nothing to do with what is going on. It's a civil war between Alewites/Shias and Sunnis. Israel gains nothing in this battle. Just more bad press from bigots like you.
On the contrary Robert, Vector is telling the truth. This is America being a puppet of Israel to destabilize Syria just as they are trying to destabilize Iran. Iran work hand in hand with Syria and Israel wants to overthrow both nations because Israel accuses them of supoorting Hamas and Hezbollah. Unfortunately, the days since Nixon, who say threw the Jews' tricks, America has increasingly become subservient to AIPAC's and Israel's demands and this is part of the reason America is a collapsing empire.
Sorry for my spelling mistakes, no spell check lol. I meant to type: On the contrary Robert, Vector is telling the truth. This is America being a puppet of Israel to destabilize Syria just as they are trying to destabilize Iran. Iran works hand in hand with Syria and Israel wants to overthrow both nations because Israel accuses them of supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. Unfortunately, the days since Nixon, who saw threw the Jews' tricks, is gone and since them America has increasingly become subservient to AIPAC's and Israel's demands and this is just one of the reasons America is a collapsing empire.
As evidenced by your statements, you do not support proper research and asserting only true facts.
Creative writing is down the hall.
What happened to CNN today: not a single article about Syria and Russian helicopters? MV Alaed disappeared into the fog. But what about the other three Russian ships? Are they going anywhere? Hillary, WHERE ARE YOU? We all missed your exciting rhetorics! There is nothing to brag about today. It is like starting your day without morning cup of coffee.
...well looks like Sec. Clinton received "tone it down, Hillary" signal from Pres. Obama.
Hilary Cinton is truly disgusting with her arrogance and self-righteousness. No wonder so many people abroad dislike us so! Bullying in any form is nauseating!
The sad fact is the hillbillies don't see it this way. In fact they even encourage this
Hillary Clinton is an outstanding Secretary of State and your comments say absolutely nothing. Her approach is called "diplomatic" rather than the military option normally selected by Republican administrations. How many American lives are we willing to give for our old enemy? How about 500? Maybe 2000? 5000? How about you? Are you willing to give your life or the lives of your children for Syria? Chicken-hawks are like their role model Mr. Crappy-Pants Ted Nugent. Big talk.
So how do your view the actions, lies and murders done under the "leadership" of Pres. Bush?
The Russian-owned cargo vessel MV Alaed had its insurance withdrawn because The Standard Club in London, which supplied its cover, said the ship had "broken internal rules". The U.K. was implementing the E.U. arms embargo on Syria. The Kremin had confirmed that the ship that was stopped off the north coast of Scotland and sent back to Russia was carrying three refurbished attack helicopters destined for Syria.
So what you are saying: the Standard Club or whatever this UK based insurance company was has an intelligence service of its own which reported "military attack helicopters" onboard of the ship.... (very smart conclusion they have made after reading the ship's conosament – ingenious!). Then Russia had to turn the ship around and cancel the delivery: because it could not afford to continue with ships insurance withdrawn.... Sounds totally ridiculous to me. Do you have any kind of difficulty believing it all yourself?
Would it not be cheaper to send parts and mechanics to Syria to "refurbish"
Helicopters, rather than ship the whole copter to Russia ?
Doesnt make sense to me.
There was some confusion caused by bad English-to-Russian translation followed by bad backward translation and various journalist fantasies.
"the ship stopped" or "the ship was stopped" or "the ship was forced to stop"
Later on June 21 it was clarified by Russian Foreign Ministry. The ship stopped, meaning stopped on its own.
It appears that it was adrift for about one day (looks like they were deciding what to do about it), and then ended up heading to Murmansk to officially change flag and registration from Curacao to Russian. It was officially explained that it is done to avoid the possibility of being arrested if it goes to foreign port (did not elaborate the possible cause for the arrest).
Technically, forcefully stopping a merchant ship which does not violate any UN sanctions (others do not count) in international waters is considered an act of war. In this particular case, if British Navy decides to stop it, this would be act of war between Great Britain and Republic of Curacao.
Russian Foreign Ministry acknowledge the presence of helicopters (the number is unspecified), but refused to elaborate about future plans (whether the helicopters will be sent to Syria later, and if then whether they will be send by the same ship or by other means of transportation).
P.S.: Who is "Kremlin"? I do not know the guy named Kremlin.
Russia is absolutely right! The US has consistently lied about their intentions. Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are only the most recent examples. The US has been the most active military Imperial power in the last 100 years. They play by their own rules that might makes right and forget about International law. Bush arrogantly remarked that “they should bring their lawyers”. As long as there is a counter balance of Russia and China, the World has some sense of law.
Thank you, BECKET. You said it all. We do play by our own rules without any regard to the rights of others! This needs to stop!
Well said. I agree with Russia on this one. The president should give back his nobel prize if he keeps up the counterproductive policies he's conducting.
How true! Those who think that American's can do no wrong, don't listen to any rational reviews of the actions of this country. Look at the history of our country when it comes to wars, foreign and domestic (i.e. against our own people).
Lets see, its OK for Russia to side with Syria's Assad to kill its own population by the thousands so that they don't loose billions in military contracts and no one thinks this is strange? So Syria can destroy its own people (over 20K) and rising and the world sits back and lets it happen. Then these stupid comments that make no sense about Russia being "right", wake up before the same thing happens to you you smug morons. Russia is one of the most corrupt Nations on the Planet. Its a cespool of corruption with Putin being the biggest thief of all.
since when you care about syrian people?what is your agenda?
@ saeed. Did you know the Jews are going to take back temple mount and rebuild the Solomon temple? Where will you be when the Dome of the Rock is destroyed? I cannot stand this hatred towards jews, islam and the arab countries are disgusting and hateful.
russian need to usa there nuclear weapons against britain they will turn every person in britain into red glowing charcoal dust ...........
NO, not the red glowing charcoal dust.......please saeed, anything but that.......
Oh the horror.
Saeed, did your camel bite you again ?
Nutjob – too funny. Great sense of humour. Well done!
Too bad Saeed does not understand sarcasm.
Religion is a joke bro.
and the great u s of a is killing people for humanitarian reasons. Give me a break. Moron.
US killed 1.5 million people in Iraq. A Syrian invasion will turn out the same.
Feel free to blame the U.S. all you want, but the basic truth of the situation is that extreme, overwhelming Muslim hatred of all other human resulted (and are STILL resulting) in the vast majority of those deaths. Don't forget that Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people in an attempt to stifle this hatred for as long as he did, but the root problem was there long before the U.S. ever showed up, and remains there even today long after we are gone.
You might be right Mike about Hussain killing hundreds of thousands but he held the country together. Now WE are responisble for those million plus deaths simply because we tore the country apart. It could easily happen in Libya and Syria if the Russians and Chinese let us get away with it.
Muslims killing other muzzies.
Explain why you think USA is responsible?
Well what else to expect from a Nazi Russophobe lowlife called Fred Weir
and you are nice people,very ethical and honest.
this is my favorite one:americans complain that someone is immora!ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,...aligators complain,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,...
Your vodka has been poisoned.
Cheers.
To russia today: We generally don't support annihilation or sectarian genocide. You've spent too much time reading Pravda and drinking vodka on Putin's dime.
Granted, Iraq was a mistake. Few Americans support long term military engagements.
How would you suggest Putin deal with Syria?
Matt, we will just have to wait and see how Putin deals with not only Syria but us and many other geo-political sittuations. Putin is super smart in geo-politics and negotiatiion and he truly is a man's man . I like him (and I think Obama and Biden like him too)
Putin banging you Kevin ?
Putin, and the Kremlin as a whole, aren't "super smart in geopolitics," otherwise Russia wouldn't be in the state that it finds itself in. Russia has dragged its feet ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, existing in a balance of denial, sore-loser-dom, and automatic disapproval of American developments. America is viewed as something like what the Russians would have done, had their empire remained and thrived, except Russia would of course argue that it would do it better or slightly differently.
I could never make that boy take his pills.
Russia sounds like they're still a little bitter over losing the cold war......
Norm, they still have a sh** load of nukes and looking back, they won financially for their people and geo-politically to abondon Communism and present themselves to the world as non-isolative and utilize the power of diplomacy. It was a smart move by Russia and as we see today they still hold a sh** load of power.
The Russian political system is one of the more recent to embrace democracy but remains deeply flawed in terms of its democratic credentials, overwhemingly tainted by corruption, and massively influenced by the power and personality of one man, Vladimir Putin.
While Russian democracy may not be a total oxymoron, it is most certainly a work in progress with Vladimir Putin remaining a massive influence on the acquisition and exercise of power. Observers describe the current state of the Russian political system as "managed democracy" or "sovereign democracy" or simply as "Putinism".
No one said anything...when hundreds of innocent people died in bahrain. What was their crime? Even doctors been convicted those tried to help the wounded ones. Their army guarded the hospitals in order to prevent them from serving innocent wounded people, not too long ago just couple of months massacre took place in bahrain as well. Western world quietly watched the show and no one dared to say anything to them. That's sad.
Russia's moral stance, the same country that invades & occupy other peoples lands, kills indiscriminately including their own. We don't have such a great record ourselves to anwser that question.
in·dis·crim·i·nate (nd-skrm-nt)
adj.
1. Not making or based on careful distinctions; unselective: an indiscriminate shopper; indiscriminate taste in music.
2. Random; haphazard: indiscriminate violence; an indiscriminate assortment of used books for sale.
3. Confused; chaotic: the indiscriminate policies of the previous administration.
4. Unrestrained or wanton; profligate: indiscriminate spending.
If this is the word you truly want to use, then you are a total idiot.
Get a real job.
Sadly the Russians do make a good point. I watched as the W admin screwed up both wars simply by aiming for profits for Halliburton. Like the article states, we came in, disrupted countries; then left, leaving Afghanistan and Iraq in a mess. Russia’s point though skewed is nonetheless accurate, which suck for us. Iraq has oil and we have pretty much screwed that up, which to me is unbelievable. Afghanistan has an incredible supply of rare earths but we will screw that up as well I am sure; China and Russia will split that or China just might keep it all, who knows? Incredible.
Lest we all have amnesia, let me remind everyone here that it was Russia that invaded Afghanistan way before the US did and in fact that invasion directly led to Bin Laden's rise in power and influence through the terroristic Arab world. And that Russia invaded Georgia and slaughtered innocent Georgian citizens a few years ago – a regime change barely mentioned in the above article. And those of you who complain about the US foreign policy, let's never forget that North Korea invaded South Korea with Soviet arms, leading to the start of the Korean war; the Soviets armed the North Vietnamese in the 1950s against the South and France and in the 60s and 70s against the South and U.S; the Russians armed Iraq who then used those arms to invade Iran; they armed the Serbs who used the weapons to slaughter the Bosnians; and now they continue to arm the Syrians who use the weapons to slaughter its own citizens. Those who somehow think that the Russians have the moral high ground in this debate are sorely lacking judgment and are in fact quite foolish and ignorant.
"..it was Russia that invaded Afghanistan way before the US did and in fact that invasion directly led to Bin Laden's rise in power and influence through the terroristic Arab world..." - WOW! I have seen a lot of twists and fantasies, but this one is definitely catches my eye. Of course, Russia is #1 beneficiary of having Bib Laden and Sept. 11. Does anybody have doubt?
You just don`t know much. Russia retreated from Afghanistan after suffering an humiliating defeat at the hands of the Mujahadin, armed by the US. This happened way before the US invaded Iraq. By the way, in case you consider this a fantasy, remember the Iraquis lining up to surrender to the advancing American troops. The did in 3 weeks what the Iranians, another fantasy land, couldn`t do for 11 years. Now, if you like apples, how do you like them apples.
No, Albert, I am just kidding.
I know what happened and when. Back in 1989 Taliban did not exist and nobody heard about Bin Laden. Russians installed Afghan Government of Dr. Najibullah in 1987, and his government remained in power until 1992 controlling most, if not all Afghanistan, but gradually loosing territory toward 1993. Contrary to what you see in Wilson's War movie, US did not lost interest to Afghanistan in 1989 after Soviets left, but kept supporting mujaheddin in their fight against Afghan Central Government of Najibullah until its fall. After its fall, and death of Najibullah in 1996, the remnants of forces loyal to that Afghan Central Government withdrew to the North, and later became known as "Northern Alliance" headed by formal president Rabbani (actually holding no real power), Akhmad-shakh Masood (having virtually all real power), and Gen. Dostum. While Masood and Dostum were initially fighting against Soviets, both of them actually stopped doing so in 1983 under the deal negotiated by Soviet Generals and actually helped to guard territory through which Soviet supply routes went against attacks of US-supported mujaheddin. Both Masood and Dostum played instrumental role in Najibullah's government.
After withdrawing in 1990 Soviet Union dramatically reduced material support of Najibullah, and Russia completely cut is off in 1991. Not even selling fuel for tanks for money. In contrast, US kept supporting of what became known as Taliban in 1993, and the last contact between US and Taliban can be traced into 1999. The person from US side supervising policies in Afghanistan was nobody else, but Madeleine Albright, remember her? Before becoming Sec. of State replacing Warren Christopher, she was US ambassador to UN for a couple years, and before that she was mostly focusing specifically in Afghanistan. She is also known for her negotiation in 1999 trying to persuade Masood to surrender to Taliban, remember that episode?
Russia started providing very limited military support to Northern Alliance after late 1998, as lobbied by several Russian generals who participated in that war (notably Gen. Lebed and Gen. Gromov) when it was realized that overtaking Pyanshir Valley by Taliban became a possibility.
US Government/Clinton Adm. interest in Taliban dried out late in 2000 only after public outcry is US when videos of public executions of women by Taliban Religious Police become available (still possible to find them in Internet, if looking harder, although not on Youtube).
Another (and this time actually much stronger) birst of public outcry in the US was caused by destruction of Buddha statures by Taliban in spring 2001.
Masood was killed by suicide bomber in Sep. 10, 2001 (one day before Sept. 11). At that time and for several years already the head of Masood security was actually a former Russian soldier who was taken prisoner back somewhen during the initial phase if the war. He was pure ethnically Russian, not just some nationality living in Russia. It is famously known that at some point Masood back in 1983 told him "You are free to go". The soldier replied "I have nowhere to go" referring to that he would be probably prosecuted in Russia. Then Masood replied "Then you are free to stay". The soldier "But what am I going to do?" Masood: "Just grab an AK-47 and join my guard". Soldier: "But do you afraid ...I was you enemy?" Masood: "No, there is no wisdom for you to harm me". The soldier rose in ranks for the next 15 years eventually becoming chief of Masood's guard. The possibility of Suicide bombing was not considered as serious threat back in 2001: after leaving their guns and having their bags checked the "journalists" were allowed to see Masood. The explosives were hidden in their camera.
Northern Alliance did all the ground fighting at the initial phase of US war in Afghanistan in 2001, including retaking City of Kabul from Taliban.
Any more questions?
P.S. Still using unmanned drones to hunt down your one time best friend Gulbuddin Hekmatyar you so generously supported back in 198x?
If you had just used a "smiley face", your fingers would not be hurting....
Jashua, playing neener – neener will get no one anywhere
What a BS?
BS=camel dung
I can't really fault Russia's logic here.
"The West, they claim, is out of legal bounds and pursuing its own geopolitical interests thinly disguised as a humanitarian "responsibility to protect" in a manner that is reckless, hypocritical and — perhaps the unkindest cut — incompetent."
This is so true it is uncanny. Stop war-mongering President Obama. The US has made a mess in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, and is trying to extend the mess to Syria. Stop it, and fix our own yard.
Russia is correct in its interpretation of the West's goals and actions. We want to control Syria as we have tried in Iraq and Afganastan with pathetic results. We should not make a move with Syria until and unless we get backing from Russia and China. Frankly we should make NO moves in the ME without the backing from BOTH Russia and China
The US shouldn`t intervene at all in Syria. This is an Arab problem. Let the Arabs solve their own problems, if need be the Arab League can help them. The US has spent enough money trying to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, only to be hated even more by these countries.
UN useless should just be dis banned.
Talking to Putin is like talking to the GOP Congress. Useless!
Russia is correct in its interpretation of the West's goals and actions. We want to control Syria as we have tried in Iraq and Afganastan with pathetic results. We should not make a move with Syria until and unless we get backing from Russia and China. Frankly we should make NO moves in the ME without the backing from BOTH Russia and China. Hopefully we will realize this fact
Better yet KEVIN, we need to stay out of the Middle East altogether for a change. We need to quit trying to force our will on other people around the world and deciding their futures. In other words, we need to adopt a laissez-faire foreign policy and drop our arrogance and self-righteousness. Besides, our own economy is suffering because of it!
We have interupted the flow of rockets, guns, money and drugs from Iran via Syria to hezzbollah.
Smart plan, its working.
Nutjob, and it is working quite well. Isn't it?
It's a step in the right direction.
PUTIN = Rule of Law HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa
Is he truly any worse than Barack Obama, onestarman? Somehow I don't think so!
I am not American.Seems to me that if you compare Obama with Putin, you either don`t know Putin or hate Obama. Perhaps both
Albert Von Sachsen: Probably both and for good reason too....
"for good reason" ?
Please explain this nincompoop statement.
Let the knowledgeable Russian and Chinese goverments spend some of THEIR treasure and youth to pacify these Arab Spring mutts.
Why should we have a fig?
well, i cannot argue with EITHER logic. They are both right, the Russian's are just selling whats nessary for them to sustain them selves. Think if you were a country. You would need to do what you needed to do in order to save your people, or else you and your people would die or perhaps be invaded. I would have done the same, unfortunately, in the cruel world, you cant always do whats good for others, you need to do whats right for your people and country. Yes, sorry to say, but countries are selfish and they need to be to sustain a proper life for citizens. okay, now to get on to the other side of this debate. I understand where the Americans stand on this. I mean normal people would think that this is a very bad thing to do (and their mostly correct) but i think that they forget what it would be like to have all your people's lives in the palms of your hands.
All in all, i think that in order to have good change happen, we must leave the middle east alone and let them solve their own problems without the help of the rest of the world.
(btw guys im only 13 so please don't be mean to me for stressing my opinion)
Good thing you weren't calling the shots while Hitler slaughter 6 million people and marched through Europe.
Hitler, unfortunately, killed a lot more than 6 million people. He killed about 20 million all told. Jews were not the only ones to die by his actions. Stalin made a solid contribution by killing at least 15 million Russians during purges from the beginning of his dictatorship
Ok, just saw your age. There are moral imperatives and despite some recent shortcomings by the US, most notably Iraq I am a harsh critic – though it remains to be seen what the long term impact will be), there is right and there is wrong. There is weak and there is strong. Sometimes those with strength have to step in, just like the allies did in WWII. There are times when force is justified.
""We've been lied to repeatedly; not a single promise the West has made to us in the past two decades has been honored,"
Since when do we own Russia anything? Let's back the timeline up a few decades to the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, the intervention/oppression in the Baltic, the attempted assassination of the Ukrainian president, the oppression in Poland. What incredible hypocrites.
If you dig back far enough, you will discover that Russian cavemen fought with European cavemen.
Unlike Islam, the civilized world learns from its mistakes and, then, things change.
Larry, I learned a long time ago that ANYTHING bad goes wrong in ANY muslim country it's blamed on Israel. If a muslim gets constipation,Israel gets the blame.
Unfortunately, the weight of the past cited does seem to be in Russia's favor. After all as an example, we invaded Iraq on what turned out to be essentially 100% incorrect info ( propoganda? ) – now if one was simply guessing we would have been 50% right and 50% wrong. The point being to be ~100% wrong and sound still sound sensible actually takes intentional effort to succeed in. We fell for that – and the consequence was/is more than a quarter of a million dead Iraqi's ( yes babies as well ), and I am not sure for what to this day. I am kind of waiting for the next deceit to unfold, probably around US arming of Syrian rebels – despite many statements to the effect that the US is only supplying non lethal aid. The picture portrays little real concern for civilians of any type or nation if such is the case, and there does not seem to be any moral compass in what we do.
You are only mentioning Iraq. The Russians have victimized all countries under their influence, even killing quite a lot more than the people who died in Iraq. Repression in Poland, Hungary, Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland again, left a huge number of deaths and thousands sent to Gulags in Siberia. Yet still after all that you still admire their system, which by the way has not changed.
God bless Putin !!
russia and china do fear revolution. look at how they treat their own people. the us is no saint but it least we don't try to take a person voice and choice away from them. i care neither for obama or romney and am able to voice my dissatisfaction to almost rebellion.
"We've been lied to repeatedly; not a single promise the West has made to us in the past two decades has been honored," says Sergei Markov, vice president of the Plekhanov Economic University in Moscow and a frequent adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin in the past.
>>What goes around, comes around!<<
"After vetoing (along with China)"...now we hear from those human rights champions...Russia and China...very impressive for the uninformed
Actually, if you focus about the subject - that the nature of conflict and the possible ways out in Syria - and leave aside all other irrelevant comparisons (i.e., Iraq, Afghanistan, etc...) and all speculations about interests third-party players involved (i.e., whose client state Syria is going to be), then the position of Russia, and specifically as outlined by Russian Foreign Ministry, is actually both moral and rational. Sounds crazy, right?
In an ideal world it is easy to distinguish between good and evil.
In real world you end up compromising and acting like a lawyer for are criminal (or for someone who looks like a criminal, or is about to be convicted being criminal). Is it immoral to be a lawyer? Or may be it is hypocritical?
Syrians fed up with Assad and do not want him any more? May be. Some of them definitely want him hanged. How many? More than 50%? Less? The point is that these questions cannot be answered, because any elections, referenda, and/or exit polls are possible only after things calm down. As of right now it is all wishful thinking.
Russians also did not like Gorbachev at some point in 1989? Sure they din not, in fact more than 50% of then got tired seeing his face. In 1991 he tried to compromise between people who want change and Communist Party hardliners. The outcome? At first Gorbachev was deposed by by his own hardliners, then they were deposed by the people on the street, then the whole thing was hijacked by crooks who later start calling themselves "oligarchs". The outcome? The country is destroyed. Humiliation and crushing poverty on the level unimaginable during the Gorbachev era. Wars. 7 (Aug 1991) + ~800 (Oct 1993) + ~20,000 (1st and 2nd Chechen wars) killed - relatively bloodless by Russian standards, huh? All started as peaceful demonstrations back in 1989. At least 10 years wasted and not fully recovered yet. May be as much as 20 million kids not born. They, Russians, know first hands what is the true costs of these "revolutions" and "springs".
Now Syria have to choice between:
A. Transition to bright, democratic, and prosperous Syria through civil war, mutual hatred, sectarian violence, and subsequent humiliation, poverty, and lawlessness. Hint: this is not between the "regime" and "the people": there are multiple factions who were getting alone with each other only because they were suppressed by the regime.
B. Transition to bright, democratic, and prosperous Syria through strengthening the existing regime into basically a military style dictatorship, with subsequent (later... may be... when things the calm down) reforms in future.
Note: reforming the existing regime right now is not longer an option. Assad actually tried it, but it was too little and too late. At this point any weakening of the existing regime will cause its collapse followed by option 1.
....So which option do you prefer?
....Besides, do you still have the choice, or it may be too? Regime in crumbling? Defections from the Army? Sure it takes place, but what is the weight of these defections?
US obviously wants plan A, and the overall approach of US boils down to:
1. Identify evil;
2. start war against it;
3. once the initial evil is destroyed, identify a new one an proceed until American people get tired;
4. find the least evil party among whatever left after stage 3 and make a compromise;
5. mission accomplished
Russia, to say it politely, supports the Assad regime thus far, so it is toward plan B.
Regarding Russia's moral standing:
Shelling of cities by Syrian Army? Innocent women and children got killed? All this takes place. Definitely, I saw very credible evidence in youtube that shelling takes place. Tanks repeatedly hitting specific buildings in what appears to be an almost deserted city. The videos are often of much better quality than what you see in here CNN and without any evidence of editing. Based on the sounds, its shells fired from a distance. Never missiles. And never salvos, single shots repeated at irregular intervals. The problem is that I do not know how to interpret these videos. May be it is army acting against some kind of snipers, or whatever... I cannot speculate. There are witnesses who gave interview, but these witnesses are from all sides, both pro and against Assad, so if necessary one can select witnesses to twist the story either way, depending on political preferences. Women and children killed? Yes. At first, Sec. Clinton flatly blame it to Syrian Army. Then it turned out that the character of their wounds is not shrapnel, but rather bullets fired from short distance and some were even stabbed. So Sec. Clinton revised her interpretation saying that it is not Syrian Army, but pro-Assad militia. The way how she interprets the events is basically at first Syrian Army using tanks and artillery shells a city, then pro-Assad thugs are let forward and commit all these crimes. Based on other wars, notably Chechnya 1st and 2nd, as well as Iraq, and (to a lesser degree Afghanistan) this actually looks like the standard mode of operation: first shelling the area and trying to suppress whatever resistance, then spetsnaz (marines, thugs, whatever you call them) come forward and "sweep" the area. This involves going into the houses, kicking doors, sometimes throwing grenades insides, and sometimes... yes... killing innocent civilians. What, however Sec. Clinton does not take into account is that in military terms advancing and sweeping territory is a hard and very expensive process in terms of casualties sustained by the attacking side - spetsnaz (marines, etc...) are getting ambushed and killed, no matter how hard they trained themselves for this type of operations, while holding territory (setting up block posts, etc) is relatively inexpensive, so every once a territory is taken and secured, no rational military commander would give it up. Yet, according to Sec. Clinton, it appears that Syrian Army shells it first, then thugs came and commit crimes, then all of them leave the area and opposition comes and reports the crimes. Do we have to believe it?
we shood have taken russia out in world war 2when we had the chanes whats going on now is in the bibel we all need to pray no one will win world war3 you can not trust any of the world leaders usa leaders dont care about there own we all have jobs russia and china and the usa need to all 3 go to gether and get read of this bucher and get along if thay dont it will be bad for all of us may god be with us all.
Would have been extremely difficult to take out the Soviet Union in 1945. Nukes would have been the only advantage. They had lots of better tanks, very good and large air force, lots of extremely battle hardened troops and commanders. Would not have been anything easy and no doubt would have ended in some sort of stalemate. Might just as easliy have been pushed off the continent.
lyle: Your yourself actually told what you problem is: lunacy.
If you keep repeating the same thing again and again, you start believing in it and loosing sense of reality. this is what happened in US decision making process: politicians have to make decisions not just based on the info available, but also take into account how they are being viewed by their electorate. This in its turn causes long rhetorics and eventual disconnect from reality.
Thoughtful comments AlexShch–It is good to see some thoughtful comments in contrast to the usual .... stuff.
I completely agree with you, Scot B! Absolutely enjoying reading AlexShsh comments.
so it appears that CNN's spin master Fareed has gotten the message from russia in regards to syria. makes no difference how many lies and propoganda based stories that he writes for obama,the russians are not goign to let a repeat of libya happen again.
GOOD ON THE RUSSIANS FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!
Agreed. As I watched the arab spring unfold all I could say to anyone is " you don't know what you are supporting or getting aftewards". To me it was obvious. To people who work in intelligence it should have been easier and more obvious. And it has panned exactly as expected. Islamists in charge, possibly terrorist organizations involved or complete chaos, a great breeding ground for the above. Great job!! So when you support rebels in Syria, come on, what are you going to get? Anyone know? Most syrians have grown up to hate the US and Israel. Do you think putting in sunni muslims with ties to hamas, hezbollah and the muslim brotherhood is going to be a good thing? All this arab spring is leading up to a major war and the west is just being duped into making it happen.
Moral standing? The only thing the Russians care is keeping their Syrian base and making money from arms sales. Their transition to democracy is non existent, they like making the US mad with their maneuvers, mainly because they feel diminished by their totally corrupt government and the state of disrepair of their armed forces. We have seen the high moral standards of the Russians in my country, now unified. We find it really funny that you are so naive as not to see the face behind the mask.
I find you liberals very boring. All you do is repeat what CNN tells you. Why do you bother to express "your opinion"? Anybody who would be interested could always read it in the article above anyway, even before he starts reading posts below. I do not bother to read CNN articles: that is the only reason I am paying any attention to what you have to say.
Thats ok Andrey,
I find you conservatives to be stupid.
By the way, if you dont read CNN articles,
how do you know what to post ?
Just random garbage ?
I wonder why Russia must participate and approve what US and its satellites plan for Syria...
The moral stance there would be: if you disagree – you say about that unambiguously and act accordingly
The rational approach would be to abstain and let US and EU keep their suicidal course. Syria would be a small price for letting US and EU liberals further sacrifice their national interest to feed their own ambition. That is what I call rational!
So the question is: will Russia abandon its moral stance and choose rational approach if US and EU liberals continue insisting on their nonsense? If I were in Putin's shoes I would probably let them have it: have another "victorious" war, do all the hard work and pay for it too! It is VERY tempting!
This is true, except that what most likely to happen in this case is that US starts a shock-and-awe style bombing campaign against the Assad's regime focusing first on air defenses, then on ammo depots, communication, and infrastructure. No boots on the ground.
Then guess what? NOVEMBER ELECTIONS! Inauguration of the next president. Loss of further interest to Syria (if Obama) or policy change (if Romney). Either way Syrians along with their fellow Arabs from neighboring countries end up sorting out among themselves whose prophet Mohammed was the true prophet and whose was not so true for the next 10 years.
"No boots on the ground" is an illusion: it is only a delay. Libya, Yemen, Egypt, Tunisia and Syria with their multy-million Muslim population, resource, disparity and problems: add some al Qaeda there and let it ferment for 5 years.... You will need all the boots you have! US will be there military anyway, Syria or not. This is rather question of when and at what price... Unless it decides to forget about Israel: but I guess it can not do that. Russia can turn its back to Syria. US can not do it to Israel. Why? Beats me...
No boots on the ground is the only option for the US right now. Any US politician who openly talks about committing ground invasion automatically becomes an instant political corpse: this is the present reality in US and this is not going to change. At the same time success in Libya inspiring. Never mind that it was not a controllable process, and it is not fully settle yet, but the prevailing opinion among American People that it was a huge success.
Paradoxically, but true US military establishment is the most pessimistic pessimistic part of the society continuously warning that "Syria is not Libya". I have impression that Generals are by far the most peaceful people in the World: they are always reluctant to go to the war even in situation when everybody else have reached consensus. By everybody I literally mean everybody from hawkish Senators to Human Rights Activists (save those civilians, women and children get killed). This happens before every war. Even Wesley Clark was reluctant general back in 1999. Remember who said "If we have all this finest military, then what is this military for?"
Russia can theoretically walk away from Syria. Just drop the support and was hands. Simply "abstain".
US will never abandon Israel, no matter what, and this is another invariant in US internal political landscape.
AlexShch
Israel and USA are friends.
friend (frnd)
n.
1. A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.
2. A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.
3. A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.
I think Russia's correct in the sense that Americans usually DO mess things up more than it should. We DO step out of our boundaries and there are fatal mistakes that come along with it. However, Russia doesn't receive the main point–if we let the issue in Syria run rampant, we're telling ourselves brutality against a group is okay. What the US does is fight no matter the cost for rights. To some people, the cost of losing to win a long term goal is worse; that's okay because we all have our opinions. Personally, I side with the US's side (not because I'm American) but because I'm more idealistic.
I do think that at heart the US wants to do good. But siding with any side in the arab muslim mideast is purely a mistake. Just as in supporting the arab spring in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, all that has happened is chaos and islamists in charge. Islam, being completely anathema to the american ideal, should never be supported. Get rid of the dictator and you either get another dictator or islamism, neither one good for anyone. But that is all they've ever had and can understand. Shouldn't like violent dictators and islam will always hate the west and the US in particular. So best leave it alone, don't waste money or western lives and let them sort it out. If they ever come around to some type or reformation, which I doubt could ever happen, then maybe they'll be fit to deal with on an equal basis. But until then, they are not worth the effort.
Russia doesn't need to explain her actions to anyone because they moral or immoral they are protecting their common business interests which are threatend by Western backed terroists.
Funny that Russia claims the US is self-interested, when the only reason Russia is involved is to sell weapons and try to undermine the international community as a whole.
How many weapons have we sold to the middle east? Is it different when we do it?
Russian weapons sales have about zero economical impact on Russia. The sales are heavily subsidized and even then the credit routinely turns into bad debt which gets written off... That is just a way to keep its own weapons manufacturing industry alive and get a political tool as a by-product.
So I have good news and bad news for you:
The bad news are: the weapons sales and naval base crap are all rubbish CNN feeds to you to test how gullible you are....
The good news: you have passed the test!
Very true and very funny!
Not always true, but in the context of Syria this is 100% true.
In the case of India, Malaisia, Indonesia, and several other large nations the trade actually for real money, not subsidies and restructuring old debt.
Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes, period.
Are you able to elaborate?
I hope the Bahrain government soon has to deal with an uprising over there, because then we'll get to see how hypocritical America is yet again, when you are forced to defend your interests.
Shamir, these are completely different situations! They both just happen to be occurring in the Middle East, both just happen to involve corrupt governments murdering civilians, both just happen to involve a major world power with a naval base in the country ignoring human rights abuses to protect their interests, and both just happen!
As an American Jew, I wish many years of health and prosperity to the great patriot and defender of freedom Mr. Bashar Assad and his family!
Well the russians are seeing some things right. All this arab spring stuff, supposed to bring western style perfect democracies has been shown to be completely delusional. This has been touted by all the liberal left. But anyone with a grain of understanding should have known that a bunch of people that have never experienced anything like democracy will not suddenly know how to do it. They understand dictators and imams, both the same for the people, just different sides of the same coin. Russia has seen as I have that the arab spring has mainly created chaos and will unlikely turn out to be no good for the west or anyone else. So they stand by not interfering in foreign countries. I'd say well done. Let them sort it out on their own terms, see what comes out of it and deal with that reality whatever that may be.
Why not ease Netanyahoo from power and get it over with?
The only thing stopping the Annan/UN plan is Ameikan interfering. Give the UN plan more time. That is the only way to achieve any worthwhile result, regardless of what the Butcher of Jerusalem wants in his power-mad grab for glory.
The UN plan will work.
After Al-Assad has finished murdering the opposition,
nobody left to fight.
Win Win.
Yipeeeeee.
They say Assad is "Dictator" but – compare data below with that statement:
-----
Assad still has a lot of legitimacy within Syria, with more than 50 per cent of the population's support, political analyst Roula Talj told RT.
“What is happening in Syria is getting extremely sectarian,” she said. “Massacres are being carried out against Assad’s forces, as well as Christians and Alawites – or indeed any citizen who is in favor of Assad.”
Assad is not likely to give up his power the way the West wants him to, and with so much support, he has a good chance of being reelected during the next presidential elections in 2013, Talj said.
“At that time he will offer an election under international scrutiny to make them as clear and as open as possible,” she said. “And then if he is reelected by the majority, he will stay. If not, he will leave.”
Saddam always won elections woth 99% of the vote.
It helps to be the only one on the ballot.
If we felt the same way russia does during WW2 the russians would be speaking german. What cowards.
mike, God help us if Russia and China ever agree to jointly involve themselves miltarily in the ME. They will kick our a**.
MAD is still in effect......moron.
You are bloody ignorant fool! Russians have lost 20 M people, they fought nazies for 4years they have stormed Berlin. You Americans only joined in the last few months of the war against Germany to prevent Soviets to take over the whole of Europe and fought Nazies when they were already broken and did not have much resource left: neither military no industrially. Thanks for help anyway of course: I am not going to call American people cowards or anything because of some small liberal s" like you!
Typical islamist.
Say anything to raise s h i e t.
Same story, same ignorance, same stupidity.
Get a job!
Do not drink and post Larry, you are making fool of yourself!
Does your imam know you take drugs Andrey?
@Lary-of-Dune, you do realize Andrey is Russian, right?
Muslims, like rats, have infested all countries.
Ossetians are not Georgians They want to be free to determine their own detiny without the yoke of Georgian domination. After all, Joe Stalin was a Georgian.
The human rights situation in Syria is terrible and requires international attention. However, I definitely understand the position of the Russian government. They have a naval base in Syria, so they feel that maintaining the status quo is best for their strategic position in the region. Their situation is not dissimilar from the situation of the United States in Bahrain and Yemen. Bahrain just recently went through a period of bloody political unrest that left many protestors dead. Yemen has a terrible human rights record. Why are these governments not the focus of constant attention by the United States and our media? It's because we have naval bases in those countries, and demanding action in those countries might jeopardize our strategic position in the region. Why do the United States and Russia not care about Darfur? Because there are no naval bases there... (U.S. Americans is a shout out to Miss South Carolina 07)
US, you are mostly correct about those countries you mentioned as having a strategic military interest to us. But the reason the countries are of military stategic interest to us is that they are foremost of a FINANCIAL NEED for us
You actually do not understand the Position of Russian Government because the so-called base in Tartus would not even qualify to be a naval base by US standards. These are not warships or any ships which are permanently based here or stayed for an extended period of time, in fact for more that a week at a time. 90% of the time the place has no ship of any kind anchored there. This is merely a place where a warship can stop and take provision of fuel. The personnel is about 100 people.
Yes, Russia has interest in Syria, but this interest is not directly expressible in $$$. A large number of Russian citizens live there for various reasons, incl. specialists of various kinds, wives of Syrians (apparently quite a lot due to the past student exchanges back from Soviet times).
Yes, Russia sells weapons to Syria, but again, the sales were quite limited during the last 20 years and are small fraction of what it used to be during Soviet times. Are we talking about repairing 20-years old Mi-24 helicopters? Big dial. Just last week US added 10 more brand new Mi-17s to the 12 already ordered for Afghan Army - that is actually more money. But all this is close to nothing in comparison with Russian sales to India, Indonesia, Malaisia, Venezuela and other countries.
Alex, ships actually anchored in port is not my point. The strategic value of having a place that your ships can be anchored, accepted, refueled and refitted in the Middle East is incredibly important to Russia. It's actually their last military base outside the boundaries of the former Soviet Union according to the NYT, so while it's "little more than a pier" according to the NYT, it's all they have in an important region for world politics.
You are thinking purely in military terms. Yes, the offshore military base has strategic value in a hypothetical war against WHOM?
And here are the problem: If the enemy is United States, then US can easily twist Turkey to close Bosphorus rendering the base completely useless. Any a other candidate enemy besides Unites States?
The second question, since Russia does not have its own territory in this war theater, then: The war on BEHALF OF WHOM?
Syria? Yes, Russia has interest in Syria. But Russia also has huge interest in Turkey as well. In fact, a very significant trade. Recently Russia has signed a contract to build a Nuclear Plant in Turkey among other things. Major construction works done by Turkish firms in Russia. Yes, some weapons sales to Turkey, although its only a small fraction of the overall trade. And unlike Syria, Turkey is not financially broke. Then what? Realistically speaking, if civil war in Syria will escalate into regional war, Turkey will definitely be involved, and guess what? Not on behalf of Assad. Then what Russia is supposed to do? Pick sides? I doubt that there is wisdom in it. Right now Russia has significant negotiating leverage and settling this Syrian mess somehow would be a major diplomatic victory for Russia with corresponding political and economic gains. Once this escalates into a regional war involving neighboring countries Russia's states instantly reduce to zero, because there is not much left to loose and also nothing to gain.
It is most ironic that we wish to FORCE freedom on people.
We don't force when there's a desire!
Yup, people do not want freedom.
They want to be abused, worked to death for a pittance, and be forced to go to the mosque 5 times a day to be brainwashed.
You so smart.
Think about this (I'm sure the Pentagon has): If Russia and China ever get together working as one militarily and wish to take over the ME; They could do so within @6mo. We may have advanced military tech. But Russia and China working together out number us troop-wise 100 to 1. And they need no Navy. They both border the ME by land. If Russia and China ever decide to get together and do this, they will kick our a**.
Complete rubbish.
Both Russia and China maintain very potent ground forces capable to defeat anybody attacking their territories.
At the same time Russia and China ability to wage war against a country in remote area far away from their territories is close to nothing in comparison with not only US and Great Britain, but also a country like France: basically Russia has just no more than 10 landing ships of "Caesar Kunikov" class capable to take about 150 fully equipped troops with few tanks and APCs. Just a single US Wasp-class ship of French Mistral can carry more than all these combined. China has even less.
@Alex, who are you? You seem to have so much knowledge in the field of international relations & political science. You should write articles for CNN. I enjoyed your comments, very insightful.
OOOOOOOOOOH! bj COMING!
I assume that comes from your personal experience.
.natalya this is not a dating site.
Ouch!
Most of the above information has been gained through the Media. The Media itself is by opportunity for opportunists, without inserting the reality.
These are called, politically correct by some and politically incorrect by others. Therefore, the TRUE is nowhere to be found.
However, if you were participated as the TRUE Armies throughout what you wrote above (I bet, not even one of you were in that Warfield), you would reflect the TRUE based on your own experiences. But, others..., they are just telling US based on fictions and just for Money (Newspaper articles).
Don't you remember those TRUE journalists, who died on the line of duties? They didn't even finished writing and Photographing the stories. So, who are you to provide a non-climax stories???? Keep it for yourself. No one is foolish herr, to read the rubbish.
If you want TRUE story, go and stay on the line of duty. Which, you scare to die.
I would say that the Russians are just acting like a bunch of lying defence lawyers.
Their position is so morally corrupt, it boggles the mind.
They have the law on their side, though, so they can watch Assad put the knives to children.
The Russians are not wise. They are stupid enough to believe that we will buy their outright propaganda. Putin thinks he can pull the same crap on the world as his corrupt government did on the Russian people.
Hey Putin! We have freedom of the press out here. Freedom of association. We can talk things over without being arrested! We HAVE talked things over. We have decided you are just a gangster, who is supporting the other gangsters of the world. You just go ahead and believe that you have us fooled. One day, you will need us, and we will spit on you, just as you deserve.
The USA wants to bring "stability" to Syria, just like it brought "stability" to Iraq.
And no one understands why the Russians question USA competency? Seriously? After what we just did?!!?!!1
Typical communist rhetoric.....
No amount of creative writing can disguise the fact that the west pokes it s nose into other peoples affairs.
Let people sort their own mess out.
Keep your grubby fingers out of others business.
Why?
Because it's none of y'all business!
Natalya – you come from the South of Russia?
No, Erin, I come from the North Pole.
Well then that explains it
In my opinion we need to ask who really is the villain. The United States rushed into Libya only for the Europeans led by France and the UK to upturn the Americans took over the hunt and ended up leaving the country worse than they met it. Now Syria is up and the europeans are pushing the United States into the same mess as Libya wihtout anyone having a rethink. Why is it that any country the United States gets into based on the recommendation of their allies(UK) that country always is worse off it?
The U.S. only supports causes which serve the national interest. All talk of democracy, freedom, human rights, etc. is just a convenient smoke screen. Everyone (including the American politicians themselves) know it's all a game. The American media is in collusion and always has been. People all over the world are stupid sheep and will accept whatever their government tells them most of the time. It's always been this way.
You might be wrong there Lou. I do not think destroying Assad's regime and delivering Syria into hands of Muslim fundamentalists is in America's best national interest. Some people want to play it safe: to have US military involvement at this stage to destroy Syrian army: to make sure al Qaeda does not get the country with army still functional – the Egypt way. That is not such an important consideration for US: it could easily sit it out on the ground of Arab Spring being instigated by America's enemies to destroy America's influence in ME (which is exactly what has happened). I am not sure if US politicians will act here exactly in accordance to the country's national interest. Not for the first time.
The day will come when Putin will be dragged through the streets of Moskow by his own Russian people. Andrey you are full of crap ,if it was not for the Americans you'd be a Nazi now.
ART please read my comment to mike: it applies to you too.
Andrey read my message to your hairy b u t t = it certainly applies to you.
If these blood thirsty and uncivilized animals insist each nation be able to sort out their own affairs they they ought to follow their own rules and stop arming one side over the other. That would be true non-interference, but the Russians are too feral minded, intellectually inept and morally bankrupt to see this glaring truth that even a mongloid could ascertain. RUSSIANS ARE FILTH. They are proving their true, satanic nature. They are lovers of war, suffering and inhumanity. Perhaps soon muslims all over the world will soon see that the great satan is not America afterall.
Wow! Great speach DEATH TO ALL THINGS RUSSIAN!
Perhaps soon muslims (and not only them) all over the world will soon see that the great fool you are afterall.
Bring on the caliphate.
The US Government has gone rogue, against it's own rules and against it's own people. They have no business saying who is Moral and who is not. Someone come help the American people stop all the killing.
I am sorry to say it, but Russia is wrong. The Libyan intervention needed to happen, or thousands of people would have died in Benghazi. There was no alternative! I repeat, there was no alternative for there wasn't any time to search for alternatives! The exact replication of the Libyan debacle happens in Syria. The time is up for "alternative searches" and the world must act! Otherewise, as would have happened in Libya, thousands more will die in Syria! Russia is forgetting that the rationals of the past no longer hold in this fast changing "Arab Spring" world! Russia was behind the curve in Libya, and is now repeating the same mistake, in Syria!
What does one expect from a country whose "leaders" murdered millions, yes millions –of their own people to further their "political" agenda?
Well, if you gona judge Russia by its history and draw some historic-national parallels, why would not you go a bit deeper? Like mentioning that actual Russian Revolution organizer, creator of Red Army and top dog during Russian Civil War on Communist side was Leon Trotsky who was Jewish. And that Iosif Stalin who was personally responsible for death of millions of Russian people was Georgian: I mean not Russian at all? So the natural conclusion for the guy like you to make would be: as long as Russians are at the top of their state things may go well, like at the time Russia was a Monarchy....
That is not my personal opinion though: I am not any kind of racist – unlike you.
You are so ignorant, primitive and arrogant at the same time!
"gona" ?????????????
Thank you, Andrey!!! Larry, just go off to finish your hamburger. Being a spelling-bee, a.k.a a Grammar-Nazi is not your thing!
Natalya – how do you know it's not his thing?
Erin- Because I read his comments, which was more than plenty!
Terrific article CNN. News media typically takes such a simplistic view on complex issues. I found this explanation of the Russian perspective very interesting.
The only reason Russia does not speak against Syria, or any other dictators for that matter, is that they themselves are dictators in waiting who would do the exact same thing as Assad should the Russian people ever revolt.
Between 600,000-700,000 people died in the American Civil War in the 1860s. Imagine how history might be different today if Europe had intervened, and forced a negotiated peace for humanitarian reasons. I'm an American, but as long as the conflict stays within their borders we have to mind our own business allow other nations to solve their own problems.
Individual Russians have been moral. The Russian regime has rarely taken a moral stance on anything.
If Americans got to know Russians on a personal level, they'd be surprised to discover that an average Russian is way more moral than the majority of your evangelicals who flooded Russia after perestroika...
Bring on the vodka.
Y'all can't handle it. Too sissy...
You are correct my mother did not force feed me vodka every night so that she could see men
Nina, and what were YOU force-fed, ...weed or crack? Doesn't look like Russian vodka-forcefed babies deter any of your couples from adopting them, instead of kids in your own backyard.
Time to change Prez.
You are so right, Romney is not capable of defeating Obama==he simply is not smart enough.
Russia's rational and moral stance on Syria?
Don't make me laugh!
Russia's leaders (like Dictator Putin) should be ashamed, for allowing Assad to commit such atrocities, in order to protect their financial interests, their military base, and their leverage on power.
I wonder what America's position would be if it was Israel or Saudi Arabia insteas of Syria?
Tom, we are trying to control Syria to secure our already control over Israel and Saudi Arabia. This is pure geo-expandsionism by us and Russia and China know it.
How true.
Arabs and muslims in general want to take over through misrepresentation and lies–never mind the murder and mayhem.
Beijing and Moscow are accomplice to a tremendous slaughter. They stand as cowards trying to prevent good people from helping and that is the reason they both will fail. Russia seems to forget that we saved them from extermination just 70 years ago.
When was that? In 1942?
You really do not know any history! I am amazed about this crap being repeated over and over again by Americans!
While your soldiers were still packing for their trip to Normandy Russian army was already way past Russian border and moving fast! Americans have only got involved into European theater to prevent Soviet occupation of Europe. And they were a bit late: Russians stormed Berlin and got Nazis defeated. You have only joined the war against Germany in the last few months when it was broken both military and industrially. So had it relatively easy.
Just do some reading it is easy now with all the information available on the web!
If it's on the web it must be true?
Joe, if you read it in your texbooks, approved by your state boards, must be true as well, just as creationism.
There is no question that the Soviet Union did the heavy lifting in WWII. They fought the Nazi's for 4 years and lost millions of people doing so. However, had the other allies not stormed ashore at Normandy, Stalin's boys would have faced a much tougher Vermacht. It was a team effort. The allies bombing campaign did not end the war but it did disrupt the Germans' potential to wage war with the Russians.
@Marty, I think it is an American way to grossly axeggerate your victories. You are so brainwashed into believing you've won Cold War, WW2, "Mission-Accomplished" war, etc... Without showcasing its imaginary victories to the public how else would your government be able to continuously fund it's massive military apparatus by your taxes (which you willingly pay), while so many of your ppl survive on substinence wages without access to health care.
Nickell, Russia and China are the only ones of the big three who are against geo-expandsionism. We want to control Syria and they know it. If anything we need to meet with China and Russia AND Iran in Moscow. No games and present a coherant plan to the UN. As for the history of us and Russia: It is just that; HISTORY. Deal with the here and now.
Actually it was the Russians that saved the Americans from the Nazis by breaking the German army BEFORE the US entered the war.
Russia is obsolete as far as nations go. They are the neighborhood bully who stands by and does nothing when he sees good Samaritans trying to stop someone from getting beaten up.
Naive abit?
The correct spelling is "Naïve".
And "abit" is two separate words.
When the truth bites your a..., you two have nothing left but become Grammar-Nazis. At least I speak 3 languages (fluently), can you say the same?
So English is not a fluent language for you.
What other languages do you butcher?
"The Kremlin harbors a deep-seated fear that authorizing outside military force to support rebellious populations might one day be used to license intervention in Russia."
Sounds like paranoia to me!
Where did you get it from? Must be from the web....
I agree with you.
Arab news through YouTube is skewed.
What makes you think that the U.S. hasn't laid itself open to U.N. or NATO intervention in its internal affairs by backing intervention into the affairs of other countries?
Follow the Motive – Follow the Money:
Israel has special military operatives working to over through Assad’s Syria.
From Wiki Leaks: “Israeli security forces have undergone extensive training prior to the coup to over through the Syrian government (Assad's Syria). Israeli secret military operatives have undergone logistic training to arm and rallied Syrian Citizens to overthrow the Syrian Forces (Strategic Coup).”
Same operations, transmissions, conducted in Libya to topple Muammar Gaddafi.
Radio transmissions are easy to decrypt and bribes disclose secrets.
For over a year – Israel has sent secret service agents, a coup to overthrow Assad’s Syria.
Israel has special military operatives killing thousands of Syrian Armed Forces, Army, Navy, Air Force, Air Defense Force, and Paramilitary Forces.
This Israeli NATO cover up is Mass Genocide the World will Stike Back Destroy The Empire The Oppression of OPEC.
I do not support Israel killing over 10,000 human beings.
Israel’s motive is clearer than Crude, Natural Resources, and relentless Greed.
Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton have armed Israel with U.S. military weapons and weapons of mass destruction. This Israeli armament is the cause of Middle East instability and genocide.
Anyone, any journalist, who denies the truth, breaks the commandments: Thou shall not bear false witness, Thou shall not kill, and Thou shall not steal – should remember – your antimatter, your soul is at stake; Heaven or Hell is for eternity.
OH...PLEASE!
Overthrow Overthrow Overthrow
Monopolize Monopolize Monopolize
Monopolies caused the 1929 Great Depression
Monopolies caused the 1930 Great Depression
Monopolies caused the 2007 Great Depression Economic World End
Choose to be Honest
Choose the Truth
This is a test, fail the test and the end humanity.
Can you, could you, are you capable of explaining yourself>
Vector, please come to reality. Israel has no interest in overthrowing Assad and replacing a secular Muslim ruler with a hardliner as in the case of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Russia is right. Foreign policy is run by a bunch of do good socialists at the UN, EU and the US and I am including the stupidity of the Bush administration as well. Russia is not only right but I hope they put troops, tanks and planes in Syria.
Nope, I do not think so. Intervening military is not done by Russia for more than 20 years now. And who in his right mind would do it there anyway? Ah, right...
Leonard, Israel is super paranoid and very regressed in geo-politics. Unfortunately they hold alot of political power in the US. It is a huge and stupid risk for Israel to advocate for the overthrow of Assad. As you said, there is a very good chance that very radical and dangerous Israel haters (who will not negotiate) will take over Syria.
We invade and "help" countries that DON'T want us there meanwhile Syrians have been BEGGING for help since the massacres started and we ignore them. If the UN stands for this, it needs to be disbanded. It is corrupt anyway and does no one any good. Just another way for the most dominant countries to keep the others down. They have a terrible record. The very least would be to kick Russia out. This is a disgrace to every country that has the means to help but sits around watching the body count rise.
and tomorrow you will say that we should not be involved in Syria's internal problems.
Make up your mind.
Lynnie, we see and feel alot of frustration with the UN. But in reality the UN keeps the big three (Russia, America and China) in communication with each other. The big three hold veto power for good reason: To keep each other in check militarily. Yes, it doesn't always work, but as we are witnessing now: This is a very healthy conflict being fought out diplomatically in front of the world's countries.
Interesting article, many wackadoodle comments. All very nice for Russia to portray itself as the reasonable one here, but fact is Obama admin. has so far resisted calls from neocon fools to go all military on Assad. So what exactly are the Russians complaining about? OK, so they got snookered on the Libya resolution. The UN hasn't been much help on Syria, anyway. What Obama has been doing, correctly so, is asking Putin to try to get Assad to arrange for some kind of orderly transition of power. The Russians can get all pious about sovereignty all they want, but just as there's some truth in their accusations of American hypocrisy, so too it's hard to avoid thinking Putin's reluctance to pressure Assad actually comes from the fear of losing their last strategic outpost in the Middle East. Furthermore, what is not smart about Russia's Syria policy, and is in fact very stupid, is their tying their fortunes to a sinking ship. No way that Assad succeeds: if the rebellion is put down, it will be at such a cost that his regime will have lost all claim to legitimacy. Or, worst case scenario, just as some of these Russian experts fear, a Sunni vs. Shia war breaks out. And who do you think will win that? (Hint: Shia are a minority) Conclusion: Russia's current Syria policy is, in fact, stupid, because they're setting themselves up to be roundly hated by post-Assad Syria. As the U.S. has found out more than once, in seeking to shore up a slimy ally, we only ensure that that country one day becomes anti-American.
Phil, I found the article fascinating in that these leaders and diplomats within Russia feel comfortable in agressively conflicting with each other on a world public format. I didn't realize Russia was so healthy in allowing freedom of speach.
Orderly transition of power is certainly a grate idea. Let Islamists get Syrian army and its chemical weapons too. Israel will love it!
Why do you require Russia to take part in this nonsense? On "moral grounds"? Hm....
For once I miss George Bush ! He would have found yellow cake in Syria a long time ago , plus they have chemical weapons .
Plus, Syria is in the process of building an underground tunnel from Damascus to Tel Aviv in a plan to conduct a nuclear sneak attack.
ahaha where oh where did you get this info ahahaha...
Who says islamists do not have a sense of humour?
Sure. This nation of liars like Bush would create any story so it can enslave yet another nation, instead of given them an opportunity to resolve their own issues.
Based on the diplomatic conflict WITHIN Russia, Hillary is going to have too much fun working with this new freedom of speach of it's leaders. I wish I could join her, but I am regressed in this level of diplomatic interpretation and practice (maybe)
Where it comes to morality Russia never had it, nor ever will.
Welcome back to Cold War...
Is this too much fun or what? Cold now, but very likely to defrost via negotiation btw. Russia, the US , China AND Iran
The issue of freedom of expression is perhaps the most important political issue in the contemporary West but it is something that people are generally afraid to address for fear of causing offense. In a year when the EU hosts a meeting of the ‘Istanbul Process’, that seeks to further erode our right to freedom of expression at the behest of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation – a group of countries not well known for their support for free expression, the promotion of freedom of expression as one of the central pillars of our civilisation is urgently needed.
US is the worse aggressor that the world has seen. The lies, the occupations of sovereign nations, the killings of innocent people and the monetary support to those who kill civilians. All this so that US can control and manipulate sovereign nations.
US, nation of "NAZIS" has the nerve to accuse others!!!
What US should do is fix its own problems, before getting involved in other countries affairs.
leon, very,very true. We have become dependant on practicing this Nazi – type behavior to secure our high standard of living
Sitting in US, I tend to agree with Russia on this. Iraq was all for oil. Afghanistan went away from simple hunt for OBL to badly managed regime change. Common man in both Libiya and Iraq are now in a condition worse than when the dictators were alive and in control. Now in Syria, some people calling themselves rebels are killing the govt. forces......I would consider those rebels as criminals engaging in illegal activity. Just because the rebels are asking US for help and the Syrian govt. is not cozying up with US, US wants Assad to go.
Unbelievably, the Russians have the moral high ground on us now, thanks to Clinton's double-cross of them in Serbia and Obama's bungled double-cross of them in Libya.
The whole world is starting to see Democrats the way the GOP has sees them. Unreliable and insincere.
West wants puppet leaders placed in every country to act as their country managers. Assad, Gaddafi, Mahathir and Mugabe did not accept the job but Mr. Ozal of Turkey, Marcos in Philippines did. West wants to oust all these leaders out of office including President Putin. West is worried about Syria, supports oppositions by calling them rebels whereas Taliban who opposes Western occupation, west calls them insurgents. West supports all Gulf Kingdoms and gives them military aid to suppress people asking democracy. West will not support them as they Gulf kings are the tenured branch or country managers. It is this Western hypocrisy that has angered Russia and hence it’s Veto. Fareed Zakaria knows this but will not write his opinion as I have written because he will lose his job as a western media manager (manipulator).
That is a good description of what "moral" stance looks like. Russia obviously lacks the ambition to dominate the world so it takes the "rational" one instead.
Russia has a long time relationship with Syria and had made it clear that Syrian regime change is up to Syrian people. Well, Russia takes no interest in supporting Syrian opposition group even if they're pretty courageous indeed. On that point, I’m not going to disagree that Russia is rational, but I’m not going to say that current Western policies are doing the efforts immoral.
Using "Russia" and "moral" in the same sentence. That's funny...or pathetically ignorant.
On a separate note, I tried to comment on CNN's most recent Hamas/Israel article but couldn't do so; must have the biased boys at CNN upset for my previous conservative comments to other articles. So here's my comment on that article: Once again, CNN delivers a completely biased, anti-Israel story; this time adding a photo of a Palestinian injured by Israeli retaliation to a Hamas rocket attack. Where are the stories of the thousands of Israelis killed or wounded by Hamas or Hezbollah attacks on Israelis over the decades??? Don't hold your breath because you won't see them in this rag. Poor, stupid CNN.
JoeDon, no photos of Israeli dead because the deaths never happened. The Israeli reported deaths of their own people are fabricated to rationalize their continued military actions to take over their niehboring countries.
Maybe Israel, unlike muslim countries, does not allow and promote the showing of its dead citizens to acquire sympathy.
In a rational support of Israel: Israel is a tiny, tiny country. It is irrational for all these Arab-Muslims to want a chunk of It when Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Oman ect have plenty of land and a sh** load of money. They could make a great living just building up these countries infrastructure
I guess these same advisors would have supported Hitler's rise to power and what he did for Germany, at least before he invaded the Soviet Union..
Hitler was in fact very much tolerated by the West as he was seen a tool to be used against Communists. Do you know about 1936 Olympic Games in Nazi's Germany? All the German Gypsies were arrested and moved to camps to keep the Games "Gypsy free". Only Spanish and USSR boycotted the Games... all on immoral grounds I guess. US entertained the idea, but decided it was all right to take part.
The Russians and Chinese should send peacekeepers
Peacekeepers are no use against terrorists. There is no demarcation line.
Russia is doing the right thing.
These UN resolutions continue to "permit" interference in other nations. Eventually this same process may be used agianst Russia itself.
I dont see why Syria's problems are anyones else business.
Leve them to their own devices.
But Assad's wife is a babe. He is so p*ssywhipped it's not funny!
Remember, the rule for invading/overthrowing other countries is
correlated with the dictator's wife (husband) f-ability. The more
fugly, the more likely they will be invaded/overthrown. The hotter the
spouse, the less likely they will have to "move" to Switzerland or
Suadi Arabia.
I though everyone knew this? Am I right?
You are creative with no facts at all-go to Holywood.
Did your father tell you about dangers of going blind?
Are you threatening a woman because you are unable to reach her level of intellect?
@Erin, we are yet to see your intellectual contribution to this discussion. So far you've been nothing but a troll.
Although no one knows for sure at this point, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Russia not only ends up looking like a selfish dictatorial regime internationally after all of this, but losing their interests in Syria on top of that. Which will be really ironic considering how hard they are standing up for dictatorship, for self protectionism. There is no way 80% of the Syrian population is mentally going to able to even tolerate or handle Russian govt assets/influence after this. No way.
I doubt if Putin likes Assad anymore than we do. For Russia it's the devil that you know, as opposed to yet another Muslim Brotherhood election victory.
Clearly, Syria´s government is collapsing. Syria should be converted to a second sovereign jewish state, and a certain amount of Pallestine could be granted to the poor people of that region. The world would be a better place! Get on it, Hillary!
Russia is right..the lawlessness and the breaking of international rules by the West is incredible...over and over again.
we need to stay out of this war. also now that russian and chain have showen there true colors. maybe Romney was right about them. all the democrats though he was out of touch see who out now.
Russia (a ENEMY COUNTRY) is supporting Islam and a leader who is killing it's own citizens....... where's the news?
Reblogged this on Political Deficit and commented:
"So far Russia has been losing this rhetorical battle. But the Kremlin insists that its case transcends mere self-interest, and points the way back to a world governed by the rule of law.
Moscow's community of foreign policy experts — many of whom routinely excoriate the Kremlin — seem uncommonly united in support of Russia’s stance on Syria. They argue that the Kremlin is adhering to a conservative set of international values, based on respect for national sovereignty and the right of Syria's people to sort out their own future."
Whenever you read one of these comments that's been Google translated, you can still detect the hint of jealousy from other nations at not having the freedom and wealth the average citizen has here in the USA.
Cool story, bro.
If the U.S. wanted to wage nuclear war with the rest of the world, every single one of you would've disappeared from the face of this planet about 50 years ago. Since that didn't happen (and continues NOT to happen), then maybe you should consider that maybe, just maybe, that this is not the U.S.'s primary objective. After all, this is not generally a country that shies away from flexing its military muscle when it feels a need to do so.
Don't fool youself. Most Wetern Europeans love to visit America but they would never live here. America has changed.
Islam has been stuck in the 1400's and has gone backwards since their leaders started jihad. Let the Arabs fix Syria instead of crying for the help of the West.
Saeed,
When did they let you out of the hospitol ?
I was worried after your camel bit you.
I feel bad for your camel.
Amen, Sir!
American idíot...
shahin.........com'on, admit it..........just a little jealousy?
I'm an American and I think that's a bunch of crap. I suspect more that people are tired of us forcing ourselves on them. I know I am.
Nutjob, you got the story from another islamist.
The real story is that Saeed bit the camel.
Then he was hospitalized.